"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedonia)

Në këtë nën-frorum do të hidhen të gjithë ato artikuj apo shkrime që marrin në analizë historine kulturën dhe gjuhën tonë. Në të nuk do të mungojnë dhe shkrime të tjera lidhur me aspekte te tjera të jetës dhe botës qe na rrethon.

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Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedonia)

#1

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:56 pm

Ne vazhdim te ciklit per mitet greke te historise, kam pergatitur nje studim te hollesishem, te gjate, por te paredaktuar, si rrjedhim ndoshta me gabime jo vetem gramatikore, por dhe ide te paorganizuara sic duhet. Artikulli eshte i gjate rreth 75 faqe dhe ndoshta mund te dale dhe me i gjate. Po sjelle faqet e fillimit te tij, per te vjelur mendimet tuaja per te, nese e mendoni te vlefshem, qe nje dite ta publikojme.

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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#2

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:59 pm

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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#3

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:01 pm

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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#4

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:04 pm

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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#5

Post by ALBPelasgian » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:46 pm

E kam pritur me padurim kete punim kaq te shkelqyer mbi Maqedonine...Menyra e te argumentuarit dhe te shtruarit te pyetjeve majeutike eshte per cdo lakmi. Prandaj te lumte Zeus. Sa i perket anglishtes (kur te pergatitet versioni perfundimtar) do te keshilloja qe tekstin ta perpunonte ne kuptimin e lekturimit, Jay Albanophile, per shkak te anglishtes se persosur te tij.

Meqe verejtjet dhe sugjerimet tona i mirepret, atehere une po hedh disa qe do t'i shqyrtojme nje nga nje.
“Therefore under the authority of Strabo all those Illyrians, Epirotes, Thracians and Bottiaei were called under one common name: Macedonians”.
Ne fakt, Straboni kur e ka shkruar kete sigurisht se nuk i eshte referuar kohes se tij, por nga burime shume te hershme. Gjendja e pershkruar nga ai (disa mendojne se eshte mbeshtete te Hekateu) asocion me shek. VIII - V para Krishtit, atehere kur Emathia popullohej dendesisht prej ilireve, epiroteve, peoneve, thrakeve e botianeve (pellazg nga Kreta?). Ne nderkohe, fisi makedon akoma s'kishte zbrite ne ultesire dmth ne Emathia. Maqedonet ndodheshin keso kohe me zonen perskaj Olimpit, ose ne malesite e Pierise. Eshte ekspansioni i madh i shek. V atehere kur ata e morren plotesisht zoterimin e Emathise duke e vendose autoritetin e tyre. Kete gjendje e pershkruan Tukididi:
THUCYDIDES ,HISTORY OF THE PELOPONNESEAN WAR, BOOK II ,(99)

(99) Having mustered at Doberus, they made ready to descend over the heights into the plains of Macedonia, which were the territory of Perdiccas. There is an upper Macedonia, which is inhabited by Lyncestians, Elimiots, and other tribes; these are the allies and tributaries of the lower Macedonians, but have kings of their own. The maritime country which we now call Macedonia was conquered and formed into a kingdom by Alexander the father of Perdiccas and his ancestors the Temenidae, who originally came from Argos.59 They defeated and drove out of Pieria the Pierians, who afterwards settled in Phagres and other places at the foot of Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon; the land which lies under Mount Pangaeus towards the sea is still called the Pierian vale. They also drove out of Bottia, as it is called, the Bottiaeans, who are now the neighbours of the Chalcidians, and they acquired a narrow strip of Paeonia by the river Axius, reaching down to Pella and the sea. Beyond the Axius they possess the country called Mygdonia reaching to the Strymon, out of which they have driven the Edonians. They expelled from the country still called Eordia the Eordians, of whom the greater part perished, but a small remnant of them settled in the neighbourhood of Physca; and from Almopia the Almopians. They and their subjects further subdued and still hold various places belonging to other tribes, Anthemus, Grestonia, Bisaltia, and a great part of the original Macedonia. But [the whole of this country is now called Macedonia, and was under the rule of Perdiccas the son of Alexander at the time of the invasion of Sitalces.
Pra kur e zaptuan plotesisht Emathine, atehere nje varg fisesh kryengritese u shprengulen (ne vendet e siperpermendura) kurse nje pjese tjeter i pranoi "zoterit" e ri duke u njejtesuar edhe nominalisht me ta. Por kjo s'do te thote qe kemi te bejme me perzierje elementesh te perkundert. Perkundrazi ne rastin ne fjale kemi vetem nje homogjenizim me te mire te fiseve te aferme nga gjaku, gjuha e traditat.

Do te ishte me mire sikur te thoshe qe pikerisht keta ilire, thrake, botiane e epirote kaluan aq natyrshem ne maqedone. Kjo eshte shenje e njejtesise se tyre. Ose, te lartepermendurit pas nje kohe u njejtesuan aq shume me zoterit e tyre saqe diferencat e meparshme u zhduken nen identitetin e ri.
What made these people of all kinds of races and cultures to take each-other hand by hand and to identify themselves under a common name: Macedonians?”
Me kete s'do te pajtohesha aspak, per shkak nuk ka pase ndonje fare ndryshimi te thekshem kulturor e aq me pak racor ne Emathi. Fakti qe aq lehte ata u njejtesuan me fisin luftarak maqedon tregon se ata ishin te njejte kulturalisht e racialisht. Perndryshe, ne s'gjejme as edhe nje prove te shkruar ku maqedonet te kene ndjere aversion ndaj 'racave' a 'kulturave' te tjera te Emathise. Perkundrazi, maqedonasit s'shihnin kurrfare dallimi - vete fakti qe banoret e ketyre aneve (Upper Macedonia) zinin vend te nderuar ne ushtrine maqedone eshte kuptimplote.
“When it comes to the land, we already know that the first author using the name Macedonia and perhaps coining it was Herodotus himself”.
Sigurisht qe llogaria (account) e pare e shkruar me shterrueshem per maqedonet vie nga vete Herodoti, ama ai s'eshte i pari qe ka shkruar e permendur Maqedonine. Mendohet se permendja e pare e emrit 'Makedon' eshte bere prej Hesiodit e me pas prej Hellanikut. Pra, vetem riformuloje ne kuptimin qe Herodoti ka qene i pare qe ka shkruar ne menyre me shterruese per Maqedonet.
“he was not aware of that name and therefore never used it, but often used Paeonia and Paeonians instead, a land and a tribe always reported to us as Thracian.
Mese e vertete! Homeri per treven e cila me vone u be Maqedoni perdor termin 'Emathi' per te pershkruar hapesirat prej Olimpit gjer ne Strimon. Nderkaq tokat perreth lumit 'Aks' quheshin prej tij si Peoni. Sa i perket perkatesise se peoneve eshte paksa pisk puna sepse thrake tamam nuk ishin (edhe pse Straboni i njeh si te tille). Me shume une do te preferoja per ta termin 'proto-ilir' ose fis iliro-thrak.
Was it necessary for a allegedly Greek from Macedonia, to stress out with a loud voice in the front of a Greek crowd, the fact that he was a Greek, while (ass Greek propaganda puts it) everyone, from both sides, Macedonians or Greeks was aware that every Macedonian was nothing else but a Greek?
Kete e citova vetem qe te shpreh mrekullimin tim te plote ndaj gjenialitetit tend kerkues, Zeus. Eshte pikerisht kjo: nese Leka i pare qe aq i sigurt ne 'helenicitetin' e tij ose greket ishin aq te sigurt per vellaun e tij, atehere perse u paraqit nevoja qe Leka te vere me siklet ne pah 'helenicitetin' e tij ose te trillonte disa here derisa e lejuan te merrte pjese n'gara!

Sa i perket Argosit, e ke argumentuar mjaft mire. Edhe pse Herodoti e Tukididi jane munduar ta falsifikojne origjinen e mbreterve maqedone duke e lidhe me Argos-in (gjoja helen), publikimi i te dhenave te tyre e kontradikton pohimin e tyre. Argosi i Peleponezit ishte vater e vertete e pellazgeve, ai i Epirit pellazg por qe helenizohet, kurse ai i Orestise ilire asnjehere s'u helenizuar. Eshte pikerisht ky Argosi i fundit, prej nga u nisen tre vellezerit e famshem maqedon.

Cka do te rekomandoja tjeter? Nese perpiqesh qe etnogjenezen e maqedoneve ta lidhesh me pellazget, atehere qemtoje me shume Strabonin sepse ai jep te dhena befasuese.

Ne nje vend duke folur per kaukonet pre-helene, Straboni shperfaq disa nga mendimet qe qarkullonin ne kohen e tij:
The Caucones, who, according to history, inhabited the line of sea-coast which extends from the Mariandyni as far as the river Parthenius, and to whom belonged the city Tieium, are said by some writers to be Scythians, by others a tribe of Macedonians, and by others a tribe of Pelasgi.
Grupime te fuqishme pellazge ishin gjithehere ne fqinjesi ose ne afersi me Maqedonine:
Such being its nature, Thessaly was divided into four parts. One part was called Phthiotis, another Hestiaeotis,239 another Thessaliotis, and another Pelasgiotis. Phthiotis occupies the southern parts which extend alongside Oeta from the Maliac, or Pylaïc, Gulf as far as Dolopia and Pindus, and widen out p399as far as Pharsalus and the Thessalian plains. Hestiaeotis occupies the western parts and the parts between Pindus and Upper Macedonia.240 The remaining parts of Thessaly are held, first, by the people who live in the plains below Hestiaeotis (they are called Pelasgiotae and their country borders on Lower Macedonia), and, secondly, by the Thessaliotae next in order, who fill out the districts extending as far as the Magnetan sea-coast. Here, too, there will be an enumeration of famous names of cities, and especially because of the poetry of Homer; only a few of the cities preserve their ancient dignity, but Larisa most of all.
As for the Perrhaebians, some of them drew together round the western parts of Olympus and stayed there, being neighbours to the Macedonians, but the greater part of them were driven out of their country into the mountains round Athamania and Pindus.
Qemtoje sidomos pjesen ku flet per Thesaline. Ja nje vegez ku mund te sherbehesh me te dhena marrafrymese:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... o/9E*.html

Heperhe, kaq e quaj te nevojshme sa i perket verejtjeve dhe keshillave. Do te mendohem edhe me tutje per ndonje propozim te ri.

Albpellazgu

P.S: Do te ishte e mire qe te perdoresh edhe temen 'Ilire, Maqedone, Helene' sidomos citatet prej autoreve te ndryshem modern. Jo per gje tjeter (sepse shumica s'thone kushedi cka) ama per kredibilitet.
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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#6

Post by Zeus10 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:09 pm

Falemnderit Alb. Ka aq shume materiale, qe mund te nderthuren per kete teme dhe mua me eshte dashur te le shume menjane, per ta zvogeluar pak permasen e artikullit, sa per nje kohe te gjate nuk po i jap doren perfundimtare nga hezitimi se cfare te perfshij ne te.
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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#7

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:14 pm

Njehere pernjehere, une po vazhdoj me postimin e vazhdimit te materialit.

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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#8

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:20 pm

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(vazhdon)
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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#9

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:56 pm

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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#10

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:59 pm

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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#11

Post by ALBPelasgian » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:57 pm

Ne keto faqe te postuara tash se fundi nuk kam ndonje verejtje per shkak se eshte shkruar paanshmerisht dhe sakte. Vec do te lutesha shume qe ta keni parasysh kete:

1. Ne tekst e keni permend qe turqit e mbiquajten Gjergj Kastriotin 'Aleksander' (Skander beg) per shkak te te bemave te tij qe ngjasonin aq shume me ato te Lekes. Une do te thosha ndryshe: ata e quajten Gjergjin si Leka i dyte mu per arsyen e thjeshte se ne kete kohe, kudo ne Europe shqiptaret shiheshin si pasardhes te Maqedoneve, atdheu i tyre si Maqedoni dhe natyrshem Leka si bir i ketij dheu.

P.S: Dekonstruktimi i pasazhit te Arianit qe preferohet aq shume prej qarqeve propagandistike greke, eshte i shkelqyer. Ata e perdorin kete citat per te bindur boten mbi ndryshueshmerine e maqedoneve prej ilireve e thrakeve. Ne nderkohe ata e keq-interpretojne kete duke thene sesi Leka me vete gojen e tij i quante 'barbare' iliret e thraket. Por ai (nese e ka bere vertete nje gje te tille ose autori e ka bere kete) me 'barbaricitetin' e ilireve dhe thrakeve nuk ka nenkuptuar qenien ndryshe te popullit te tij prej iliro-thrakeve. Me teper e ka thene ne kuptimin qe edhe Iliria edhe Thrakia ne kuptimin politik, por deri-diku edhe ate kulturor nuk benin pjese ne te 'ndrituren' Hellade. Kete e ka bere edhe me nje qellim diplomatik - ne menyre qe te qetesohej pakez kryelartesia e grekeve ne ushtrine e tij ne menyre qe ata tek iliret dhe thraket te hiqnin paragjykimet e vjetra dhe t'i shihnin ata si vellezer te nje qellimi - shkaterrimin e Persise.
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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#12

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:46 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote:Ne keto faqe te postuara tash se fundi nuk kam ndonje verejtje per shkak se eshte shkruar paanshmerisht dhe sakte. Vec do te lutesha shume qe ta keni parasysh kete:

1. Ne tekst e keni permend qe turqit e mbiquajten Gjergj Kastriotin 'Aleksander' (Skander beg) per shkak te te bemave te tij qe ngjasonin aq shume me ato te Lekes. Une do te thosha ndryshe: ata e quajten Gjergjin si Leka i dyte mu per arsyen e thjeshte se ne kete kohe, kudo ne Europe shqiptaret shiheshin si pasardhes te Maqedoneve, atdheu i tyre si Maqedoni dhe natyrshem Leka si bir i ketij dheu.
Ky moment eshte sqaruar ne faqet pasardhese, sepse sqarimi i fakteve, eshte dashur te behet ne menyre graduale dhe shteruese, ne kohen e duhur. nuk mund te ndalesha shume te Skenderbeu aty sepse gjithe materiali eshte ndertuar ne menyre te shkallezuar, bile ngandonjehere dhe duke ju rikthyer te njejtit argument.

P.S: Dekonstruktimi i pasazhit te Arianit qe preferohet aq shume prej qarqeve propagandistike greke, eshte i shkelqyer. Ata e perdorin kete citat per te bindur boten mbi ndryshueshmerine e maqedoneve prej ilireve e thrakeve. Ne nderkohe ata e keq-interpretojne kete duke thene sesi Leka me vete gojen e tij i quante 'barbare' iliret e thraket. Por ai (nese e ka bere vertete nje gje te tille ose autori e ka bere kete) me 'barbaricitetin' e ilireve dhe thrakeve nuk ka nenkuptuar qenien ndryshe te popullit te tij prej iliro-thrakeve. Me teper e ka thene ne kuptimin qe edhe Iliria edhe Thrakia ne kuptimin politik, por deri-diku edhe ate kulturor nuk benin pjese ne te 'ndrituren' Hellade. Kete e ka bere edhe me nje qellim diplomatik - ne menyre qe te qetesohej pakez kryelartesia e grekeve ne ushtrine e tij ne menyre qe ata tek iliret dhe thraket te hiqnin paragjykimet e vjetra dhe t'i shihnin ata si vellezer te nje qellimi - shkaterrimin e Persise.
Per te mos thene qe vete pasazhi, duke pasur parasysh frymen patriotike te tij shume paradoksale per kohen, duket me shume nje sajim modern, nga ata qe jane bere me shumice 200 vjetet e fundit.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#13

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:02 am

Vete fakti qe teksteve te autoreve greko-romak iu dha dora e fundit nga Kisha dhe intelektualet filohelen tregon falsitetin e tyre n'plot raste...
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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#14

Post by Zeus10 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:11 pm

Vazhdojme:

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Re: Greece the land where the myths replace history(Macedoni

#15

Post by Zeus10 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:16 pm

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