"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Arberiaonline kunderpergjigjet (per Zeus, Bardus, Mallakast)

Në këtë nën-frorum do të hidhen të gjithë ato artikuj apo shkrime që marrin në analizë historine kulturën dhe gjuhën tonë. Në të nuk do të mungojnë dhe shkrime të tjera lidhur me aspekte te tjera të jetës dhe botës qe na rrethon.

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Re: Arberiaonline kunderpergjigjet (per Zeus, Bardus, Mallak

#16

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:19 pm

The meagerness of written Albanian has greatly hampered the progress of revealing the relation between ancient Greek and Albanian. The claim that Albanian has exceedingly few borrowings from Doric Greek is altogether groundless. The proponents of this claim have argued that proto-Albanian has been spoken in a region which was less tarnished by the Greek influence of coastal colonies. They firmly precluded the possibility that Albanians have occupied from the onset the coastal Albania. However, detailed investigations have shown that Albanian has heaps of Doric borrowings which may be contextualized on the pre-Roman period when indigenous Illyrian population had intense contacts with Doric colonies. One is tempted to mention a couple of significant examples like: mokër, mokën ''millstone, grindstone" < machana (Ionian-Attic mechane), drapën 'sickle' < *drapanon, mollë 'apple' < malon. Its very plausible that such loans penetrated into the Illyrian language through the early Corinthian colonies of the seventh to fourth centuries B.C, along the Ioanian and Adriatic coastline. The number of loans may be way larger than that because other loans may well have been asked by an absorption into Albanian phonology. In this case it would be extremely difficult to distinguish genetic cognates from loans (Bernal 2006: 178). Some other startling concordances are also: κάρυα (Hesychius: κάρουα Λάκωνες) may be well compared with alb. ,, gharré '' (walnut); τανί ,,at this time'' (described as Doric by Hesychius; attic. τηνικάδε) with Alb. adverb ''tani'' (now). κᾶπος ,,garden'' (Ionic-Attic form being κῆπος) with alb. kopsht (which in turn derive from < PAlb. *kāp-isht-), regarded by many as phonetic and semantic reminiscence; the Doric personal pronoun αuς ''he'' (Hesychius: «αυς, γενική αυτός. Κρήτες και Λάκωνες») is persuasively linked with alb. ai, ay in nominative. (Actually there are only few studies which meddle extensively with the relation between ancient Greek and Albanian. Many scholars have pointed out that northern dialects of ancient Greek are fraught with several Illyrians loans. The Illyrian influence over Greek is attributed to the X-IXth century B.C where Illyrian migration swamped all over Greece. Such a migration is best evinced by certain place-names which are recognizably Illyrian. Thus, J. Wilkes is mildly supportive to the view that Illyrian has exerted some noticeable influence over Greek for he held that "the linguistic evidence for Illyrians in Greece, Asia Minor and Italy is yet to be interpreted" (1995:39). Some startling examples which seem to wholly confirm the idea that Illyrians crept in midst of Greece, are: the Illyrian tribe of Μεσσάπιοι is found in Locris, Boeotia, Laconia, Aetolia, Elis and even in Crete and Caria; the name of Aphrodite at Syracuse, according to Hesychius, was βαιῶτις which is generally regarded as Illyrian. Once Kretchmer opined that tribal name of Βοιωτός was of Illyrian origin. He took his point of departure on the Illyrian personal name Boios. The attention of varied linguists has been captivated by the analogy of Gr. γυναιχί (woman) with gunakhai (Messapic dative, gun-akhai). A. Mayer went even further and suggested that gunakhai was a purely Illyrian form, a dat. from IE. *gunakoi. It must be emphasized that Dorians might have been Illyrian as the very ancient seat of them resided within Illyrian territory before they shifted in the general movement which took place ever since XIIth century B.C. It would not be amiss to surmise that primeval Dorians were responsible for the spread of numerous Illyrian place-names across Greece and the existing languages were heavy outmuscled by Illyrian.
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Re: Arberiaonline kunderpergjigjet (per Zeus, Bardus, Mallak

#17

Post by Zeus10 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:38 pm

Alb, shume pershkrim dhe fare pak argument per lidhjet iliro-dorike. Retushimi qe i bere, nuk e ndryshoi thelbin e problemit, per lidhjen iliro-dorike. E verteta eshte qe doret jane zgjatem i ilireve. Ne asnje moment kjo nuk eshte vene ne dukje. Nga ana tjeter, ne nuk e dime as gjuhen e ilireve as gjuhen e doreve dhe po ashtu nuk e dime nese ajo qe na thuhet si gjuhe e "heleneve" apo doreve, ka qene gjuhe vernakulare apo jo, qe te bejme krahasimet brenda grupit.
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Re: Arberiaonline kunderpergjigjet (per Zeus, Bardus, Mallak

#18

Post by ALBPelasgian » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:22 pm

Zeus10 wrote:Alb, shume pershkrim dhe fare pak argument per lidhjet iliro-dorike. Retushimi qe i bere, nuk e ndryshoi thelbin e problemit, per lidhjen iliro-dorike. E verteta eshte qe doret jane zgjatem i ilireve. Ne asnje moment kjo nuk eshte vene ne dukje. Nga ana tjeter, ne nuk e dime as gjuhen e ilireve as gjuhen e doreve dhe po ashtu nuk e dime nese ajo qe na thuhet si gjuhe e "heleneve" apo doreve, ka qene gjuhe vernakulare apo jo, qe te bejme krahasimet brenda grupit.
Mire, Zeus, e plotesova edhe njehere artikullin. Shpresoj te kem vene ne pah me mire origjinen ilirike te doreve.Paragrafin e ri e kam shenjezuar me ngjyre te kalter!
  The meagerness of written Albanian has greatly hampered the progress of revealing the relation between ancient Greek and Albanian. The claim that Albanian has exceedingly few borrowings from Doric Greek is altogether groundless. The proponents of this claim have argued that proto-Albanian has been spoken in a region which was less tarnished by the Greek influence of coastal colonies. They firmly precluded the possibility that Albanians have occupied from the onset the coastal Albania. However, detailed investigations have shown that Albanian has heaps of Doric borrowings which may be contextualized on the pre-Roman period when indigenous Illyrian population had intense contacts with Doric colonies. One is tempted to mention a couple of significant examples like: mokër, mokën ''millstone, grindstone" < machana (Ionian-Attic mechane), drapën 'sickle' < *drapanon, mollë 'apple' < malon. Its very plausible that such loans penetrated into the Illyrian language through the early Corinthian colonies of the seventh to fourth centuries B.C, along the Ioanian and Adriatic coastline. The number of loans may be way larger than that because other loans may well have been asked by an absorption into Albanian phonology. In this case it would be extremely difficult to distinguish genetic cognates from loans (Bernal 2006: 178). Some other startling concordances are also: κάρυα (Hesychius: κάρουα Λάκωνες) may be well compared with alb. ,, gharré '' (walnut); τανί ,,at this time'' (described as Doric by Hesychius; attic. τηνικάδε) with Alb. adverb ''tani'' (now). κᾶπος ,,garden'' (Ionic-Attic form being κῆπος) with alb. kopsht (which in turn derive from < PAlb. *kāp-isht-), regarded by many as phonetic and semantic reminiscence; the Doric personal pronoun αuς ''he'' (Hesychius: «αυς, γενική αυτός. Κρήτες και Λάκωνες») is persuasively linked with alb. ai, ay in nominative. (Actually there are only few studies which meddle extensively with the relation between ancient Greek and Albanian. Many scholars have pointed out that northern dialects of ancient Greek are fraught with several Illyrians loans. The Illyrian influence over Greek is attributed to the X-IXth century B.C where Illyrian migration swamped all over Greece. Such a migration is best evinced by certain place-names which are recognizably Illyrian. Thus, J. Wilkes is mildly supportive to the view that Illyrian has exerted some noticeable influence over Greek for he held that "the linguistic evidence for Illyrians in Greece, Asia Minor and Italy is yet to be interpreted" (1995:39). Some startling examples which seem to wholly confirm the idea that Illyrians crept in midst of Greece, are: the Illyrian tribe of Μεσσάπιοι is found in Locris, Boeotia, Laconia, Aetolia, Elis and even in Crete and Caria; the name of Aphrodite at Syracuse, according to Hesychius, was βαιῶτις which is generally regarded as Illyrian. Once Kretchmer opined that tribal name of Βοιωτός was of Illyrian origin. He took his point of departure on the Illyrian personal name Boios. The attention of varied linguists has been captivated by the analogy of Gr. γυναιχί (woman) with gunakhai (Messapic dative, gun-akhai). A. Mayer went even further and suggested that gunakhai was a purely Illyrian form, a dat. from IE. *gunakoi. It must be emphasized that Dorians might have been Illyrian as the very ancient seat of them resided within Illyrian territory before they shifted in the general movement which took place ever since XIIth century B.C. The origin of Dorians still remain cloaked in mystery. Some references on Herdotus reckoning them as Hellenes must be dismantled altogether (1.56.2: Ἑλληνικὸν ἔθνος; VI, 53: ). Herodotus sought to convince his audience that Dorians took later this name probably during their coming in Peloponnesus, but he did not clarify their collective name (1.56.3: ἐς Πελοπόννησον ἐλθὸν Δωρικὸν ἐκλήθη.) There are multitude of accounts describing fairly well the northerly origin of Dorians. One of the chief Doric tribes - Hylleans - was decidedly Illyrian (Steph. Byz. Ὑλλεῖς, ἔθνος Ἰλλυρικόν). It seems fairly probable that a powerful stream of Dorians seized from some centuries Pindus mountains. Those tribes who later were indiscriminately regarded as Dorians overlaid the previous populations in Peloponnesus and held under their sway. Ever since, the Dorian tribes underwent a conspicuous process of Hellenization. Thus Herodotus attributed to Cleisthenes, then the tyrant of Sycon, the deliberate attempt to change the ending names of certain Doric tribes which constituted the population of Sycon. The population of Sicyon evidently had a Dorian element which was divided into three tribes: Hylleis, Pamphyli and Dymanatae. Cleisthenes carried out a change on the tribal composition of city because he was well-aware of some ethnic antagonism (Herodotus V.68: ἵνα δὴ μὴ αἱ αὐταὶ ἔωσι τοῖσι Σικυωνίοισι καὶ τοῖσι Ἀργείοισι). Once they settled in Pelepponesuss, Dorians left off speaking their language. Their language, as Strabo observed, virtually blotted out as they were no longer part of the same tribe (Strab. VIII, 1,2: παρατρέψαι τὴν γλῶτταν καὶ τὰ ἄλλα ἔθη πρὸς τὸ μὴ ὁμογενές, ὁμογενεῖς πρότερον ὄντας). While its hard to gauge the true extent of this alienation, it's evidently clear that the ruling aristocracy of Dorians was willing to adopt certain genealogies, and one of them sought to link with Egyptians (Herod. VI, 53: Δωριέων ἡγεμόνες Αἰγύπτιοι ἰθαγενέες). It's still questionable if such genalogies swept away all the differences which were conceivable between Dorians and neighboring populations. This persistence to not perceive Dorians as being of the same stock was emphasized in many cases. Thus, Cleomenes felt the need to forge his own origin because Dorians were strictly prohibited from entering to the Achaian temples on the grounds they were foreigners (Herod. I.56: «ὦ γύναι, ἀλλ᾽ οὐ Δωριεύς εἰμι ἀλλ᾽ Ἀχαιός.»). Some distinct Dorian cultural forms (such as dress) were noticeable even in the time of Herodotus (V, 87.3: τῶν Ἀθηναίων γυναῖκες ἐσθῆτα Δωρίδα). It would not be amiss to surmise that primeval Dorians were responsible for the spread of numerous Illyrian place-names across Greece and the existing languages were heavy outmuscled by Illyrian.  
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Re: Arberiaonline kunderpergjigjet (per Zeus, Bardus, Mallak

#19

Post by ALBPelasgian » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:24 pm

Ja edhe nje forme tjeter me e plotesuar (ketu kam shtuar edhe pjese nga nje debat qe kishim ne history-forum):
  The meagerness of written Albanian has greatly hampered the progress of revealing the relation between ancient Greek and Albanian. The claim that Albanian has exceedingly few borrowings from Doric Greek is altogether groundless. The proponents of this claim have argued that proto-Albanian has been spoken in a region which was less tarnished by the Greek influence of coastal colonies. They firmly precluded the possibility that Albanians have occupied from the onset the coastal Albania. However, detailed investigations have shown that Albanian has heaps of Doric borrowings which may be contextualized on the pre-Roman period when indigenous Illyrian population had intense contacts with Doric colonies. One is tempted to mention a couple of significant examples like: mokër, mokën ''millstone, grindstone" < machana (Ionian-Attic mechane), drapën 'sickle' < *drapanon, mollë 'apple' < malon. Its very plausible that such loans penetrated into the Illyrian language through the early Corinthian colonies of the seventh to fourth centuries B.C, along the Ioanian and Adriatic coastline. The number of loans may be way larger than that because other loans may well have been asked by an absorption into Albanian phonology. In this case it would be extremely difficult to distinguish genetic cognates from loans (Bernal 2006: 178). Some other startling lexical concordances are also: κάρυα (Hesychius: κάρουα Λάκωνες) may be well compared with alb. ,, gharré '' (walnut); τανί ,,at this time'' (described as Doric by Hesychius; attic. τηνικάδε) with Alb. adverb ''tani'' (now). κᾶπος ,,garden'' (Ionic-Attic form being κῆπος) with alb. kopsht (which in turn derive from < PAlb. *kāp-isht-), regarded by many as phonetic and semantic reminiscence; the Doric personal pronoun αuς ''he'' (Hesychius: «αυς, γενική αυτός. Κρήτες και Λάκωνες») is persuasively linked with alb. ai, ay in nominative. (Actually there are only few studies which meddle extensively with the relation between ancient Greek and Albanian. Many scholars have pointed out that northern dialects of ancient Greek are fraught with several Illyrians loans. The Illyrian influence over Greek is attributed to the X-IXth century B.C where Illyrian migration swamped all over Greece. Such a migration is best evinced by certain place-names which are recognizably Illyrian. Thus, J. Wilkes is mildly supportive to the view that Illyrian has exerted some noticeable influence over Greek for he held that "the linguistic evidence for Illyrians in Greece, Asia Minor and Italy is yet to be interpreted" (1995:39). Some startling examples which seem to wholly confirm the idea that Illyrians crept in midst of Greece, are: the Illyrian tribe of Μεσσάπιοι is found in Locris, Boeotia, Laconia, Aetolia, Elis and even in Crete and Caria; the name of Aphrodite at Syracuse, according to Hesychius, was βαιῶτις which is generally regarded as Illyrian. Once Kretchmer opined that tribal name of Βοιωτός was of Illyrian origin. He took his point of departure on the Illyrian personal name Boios. The attention of varied linguists has been captivated by the analogy of Gr. γυναιχί (woman) with gunakhai (Messapic dative, gun-akhai). A. Mayer went even further and suggested that gunakhai was a purely Illyrian form, a dat. from IE. *gunakoi. It must be emphasized that Dorians might have been Illyrian as the very ancient seat of them resided within Illyrian territory before they shifted in the general movement which took place ever since XIIth century B.C. The origin of Dorians still remain cloaked in mystery. Some references on Herdotus reckoning them as Hellenes must be dismantled altogether (1.56.2: Ἑλληνικὸν ἔθνος; VI, 53: ). Herodotus sought to convince his audience that Dorians took later this name probably during their coming in Peloponnesus, but he did not clarify their collective name (1.56.3: ἐς Πελοπόννησον ἐλθὸν Δωρικὸν ἐκλήθη.) There are multitude of accounts describing fairly well the northerly origin of Dorians. One of the chief Doric tribes - Hylleans - was decidedly Illyrian (Steph. Byz. Ὑλλεῖς, ἔθνος Ἰλλυρικόν). Another consideration which has gone essentially unmentioned is Kretchmer's suggestion who identifies Dorians with the Douriopes, a Macedonian people inhabiting the territory around the towns of Krushevo and Prilep (cities in modern Macedonia). While modern Greek scholar, Sakalleriu goes one step further and pairs Dryopes with Derriopes: "The Dryopes, a section of whom remained in the valley of the Erigon (Crna) and survived into the historical period, when they were known by the name Derriopes, or Deuriopes or Douriopes: Dry-, Derr-, Deur- and Dour- are all the evolved form or rendering of the same root, the original meaning of which was 'tree' and which later came to mean oak tree". It seems fairly probable that a powerful stream of Dorians seized from some centuries Pindus mountains. This might well have been the very reservoir of highlander Illyrian tribes (i.e Dorian) which gave infusion to the later Macedonians. Hermann Bengtson concedes that “The Dorians were intermingled with the Illyrian elements, which incidentally also reappear among the Macedonians and the Thracians". Those tribes who later were indiscriminately regarded as Dorians overlaid the previous populations in Peloponnesus and held under their sway. Ever since, the Dorian tribes underwent a conspicuous process of Hellenization. Thus Herodotus attributed to Cleisthenes, then the tyrant of Sycon, the deliberate attempt to change the ending names of certain Doric tribes which constituted the population of Sycon. The population of Sicyon evidently had a Dorian element which was divided into three tribes: Hylleis, Pamphyli and Dymanatae. Cleisthenes carried out a change on the tribal composition of city because he was well-aware of some ethnic antagonism (Herodotus V.68: ἵνα δὴ μὴ αἱ αὐταὶ ἔωσι τοῖσι Σικυωνίοισι καὶ τοῖσι Ἀργείοισι). Once they settled in Pelepponesuss, Dorians left off speaking their language. Their language, as Strabo observed, virtually blotted out as they were no longer part of the same tribe (Strab. VIII, 1,2: παρατρέψαι τὴν γλῶτταν καὶ τὰ ἄλλα ἔθη πρὸς τὸ μὴ ὁμογενές, ὁμογενεῖς πρότερον ὄντας). While its hard to gauge the true extent of this alienation, it's evidently clear that the ruling aristocracy of Dorians was willing to adopt certain genealogies, and one of them sought to link with Egyptians (Herod. VI, 53: Δωριέων ἡγεμόνες Αἰγύπτιοι ἰθαγενέες). It's still questionable if such genalogies swept away all the differences which were conceivable between Dorians and neighboring populations. This persistence to not perceive Dorians as being of the same stock was emphasized in many cases. Thus, Cleomenes felt the need to forge his own origin because Dorians were strictly prohibited from entering to the Achaian temples on the grounds they were foreigners (Herod. I.56: «ὦ γύναι, ἀλλ᾽ οὐ Δωριεύς εἰμι ἀλλ᾽ Ἀχαιός.»). Some distinct Dorian cultural forms (such as dress) were noticeable even in the time of Herodotus (V, 87.3: τῶν Ἀθηναίων γυναῖκες ἐσθῆτα Δωρίδα). It would not be amiss to surmise that primeval Dorians were responsible for the spread of numerous Illyrian place-names across Greece and the existing languages were heavy outmuscled by Illyrian.  
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Re: Arberiaonline kunderpergjigjet (per Zeus, Bardus, Mallak

#20

Post by bardus » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:30 am

Albo nese te vyjne ke edhe te tjera ketu,jane rremuje.Me rendesi eshte se Dorianet kane Iliren Prothetic V (Pokorny)

dor. αβήρ (= αυήρ) AVULL?

ατερος dor. usw. für ετερος s. d. I-178 JATER,TJETER

βρα · ἀδελφοι, ὑπο 'Ηλειων (code Ιλειων) H. - well to φρατηρ, uz as Illyrian element of the dialect (Alb. Vela). See Kretschmer Glotta 3, 33, see also Schwyzer 65 A. 2 (p. 66) and latte for St. I-261

γηθέω (seit Il.), dor. γᾱθέω, Perf. γέγηθα (poet. seit Il.), dor. γέγᾱθα, Aor. γηθῆσαι, γᾱθῆσαι (Hom., Pi. usw.), spätes Präs. γήθομαι, γήθω, γά̄θω ‘sich freuen’. GEZOHEM

δα (Trag. in lyr., z. B. A. Eu. 874 οἰοῖ δᾶ φεῦ), Interj. — nach Sch. Ag. 1072, EM 60, 8 dorisch für γᾶ, γῆ, das Kretschmer (s. Δημήτηρ) auch in dor. Δαμάτηρ und in dor. Ποτειδάν (s. Ποσειδῶν) wiederfinden will. I-337 DHEU

πλήν (s. d.), dor. πλάν eig. *‘nahe’ (zu πλησίον PRANE


εἴκοσι, hom. auch ἐείκοσι (s. unten), dor. ϝίκατι ‘zwanzig’. NJEZET ;


ενερθε(ν), auch νέρθε(ν) (ep. ion. poet.), ενερθα (dor. lesb.) NERTE,NEN TE Adv. und Präp. ‘(von) unten, unter(halb)’. ner ta


ἐτης m., dor. ετας, el. ϝέτας ‘Angehöriger, Stammesgenosse’ VJET ,VIT (Hom., nur im Plur.), ‘Mitbürger, Bürger, Privatmann

ιάλλω, Aor. ἰῆλαι, dor. (Sophr.) ιαλαι,absenden, ausstrecken’ sjell
ικω (ep. lyr. dor. ark.), ικάνω ‘kommen, gelangen, erreichen’ ik

κορυφή, dor. -φά ‘Gipfel, Scheitel’ summit, korube [ka mundesi emri i malit KORABIT]


ξένος, ep. ion. poet. ξεῖνος, dor. ξένϝος myk. ke-se-nu-wo (?), m. ‘Fremdling, Gast, Gastfreund, Wirt’ (seit Il.),
_____________________
iκάντιν Dor. είκοσιν njezet

μάντοι , Dor. for μέντοι indeed, to be sure, however; mendoj

ty : τοΐιν .σοι Dorik

ve vesh dorian : ώατοθήσω άκοuσομαι Δωριεις ὠας , τό, Dor Hsch. ὑεστάκα:vesh

ἦλιψ, a Dorian shoe GJALMË të zi. Gjalmëzezat e Labërisë.

Dor. βᾶσσα , ἡ, poet. Noun,BASHTINË f.2. Kopsht, bahçe. Ara e bashtina. Il.3.34,; βῆσσα wooded combe, glen ;
κα^βαίνων , Dor. ;κάββαλε =καταβάλλω throw down, overthrow ;

καβολά , ἁ,= Dor.= καταβολή throwing down

καγχαστής loud laugher , Ka kesh ''jam ka keshi (qesh)''

ϝοίκω DOR.οἴκοθεν. alb.VIS .Kjo e fundit tregon se Dorianet e paten prothetic V ilire te cilen e ka emeruar Pokorny,

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