"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Albanian position among Indo-European languages

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Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#1

Post by ALBPelasgian » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:21 pm

By deeply scrutinizing Albanian, it becomes patently obvious that its speakers have had a long presence in Balkans, which probably precede that of Greek. The prevalent opinion among current linguists is that Albanian predecessor was Illyrian, more appropriately a more southern dialect which was affected by Greek, its close neighbor. It must be noted that a few linguists are prone to believe that Albanian stem from Dacian, although no historical inkling exist for any massive migration of Dacian speakers in Albania. The Latin zone had no strong hold in Southern Illyria. One is genuinely curios to know how it is possible that the speech of some wandering Dacian tribes could supersede Latin which was presumably spoken into coastal cities of southern Illyria. This argument does make some sense given that southern Illyrians were lightly Romanized and certain Illyrians kept intact their identity. Thus with considerable safety we may state that Albanian stretch its origin back to the Illyrian dialects spoken in a vast area from Montenegro, modern Albania, several parts of Epirus as well as Macedonia and Dardania.

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Re: Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#2

Post by ALBPelasgian » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:14 pm

Indeed our knowledge on Illyrian will never be satisfactory as its speakers left no records of their language. The reconstruction of certain words is hampered by the small proportion of words admittedly classified as Illyrian (glosses). Nonetheless, Albanian can be associated with Illyrian as it is the case with a cluster of toponymes and anthroponymes:
From that one solitary notice survived, a few dubious place names and proper nouns, and perhaps today's Albanian which can with difficulty be connected to these.

Foreword to the Past: A Cultural History of the Baltic People, Endre Bojtár, 1999, p.90
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Re: Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#3

Post by ALBPelasgian » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:22 pm

Harvey Mayer has an interesting hypothesis on the spread of ancient languages over Balkans. He rather conjectures that Baltoid Thracians and Dacians were pushed in south and a stream of them went as far as Western Balkans (which remain doubtful to my humble opinion given that Thracian vestiges are extremely few on that part). He goes unto say that certain Albanoids (he make them out as Illyrians) escaped from Baltoid overlords and managed to retain into barren mountains, striving to keep their identity alive. A part of them migrated further into southern Italy, whose descendants will be known as Messapians:
To reach the Eastern Balkans, Baltoidic Pre-Thracians and Pre-Dacians had to pass through Albanoidic territory in the Carpathians. I believe they captured some Albanoidics and brought them to the Eastern Balkans as slaves. Some of these Albanoidics escaped westward into the mountains to hide. From these less hospitable, poorer West Balkan areas some of these escaped Albanoidics crossed the Adriatic to Italy and became known as Messapians. The rest remained in the Western Balkans and became known as Illyrians whose direct descendants, I believe, are the Albanians who, incidentally, have kept up their old tradition of wandering on to Italy. This scenario explains some of the Non-Romance, "native" lexical corespondences between Rumanian and Albanian. Some of these items are Thracian and Dacian words which the ancestors of the Albanians learned from their Baltoidic Thracian and Dacian masters.

http://www.lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02.htm
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Re: Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#4

Post by bardus » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:49 am

Disa konkluzione te Julius Pokornit rreth pozicionit te gjuhes shqipe:


Albanian preserved the old laryngeal ḫ- > s- like satem languages alb. (*sūrīna) shura `urine' : Hittite šehur `urine' : lat. ūrīna `urine'. But in alb. hur-dë `pond, tank, marsh' alb. preserved ḫ- laryngeal like centum languages.

Clearly alb. bar `grass, straw' derived from Indian languages.

Hence alb. is a direct descendant of Sanskrit. Clearly alb. belongs to satem family.

Probably from av. ap. basta- n. `ligation' derived alb. besë `pact, covenant, faith, belief, armistice', previously illyr. TN Besoi [common alb. shift st > s]; clearly illyr. displays simultaneous satem and centum characteristics since it was created before the split of Indo European family. Because the institution of besa is the most important pagan medium that surpasses monotheistic religions in alb. psyche, that means alb. are the descendants of illyr. Only alb. and Indic languages relate to the fact of blood bond. The institution of besa marks the ancient code of blood revenge and the victory of patriarchy or the blood line of the father.

Illyr., Mess. and later alb. display satem characteristics the same as Old Indian and av. Not only illyr. shares with Old Indian and av. the cognates for `bear' but also the institution of priesthood and earth fertility: Mess. maḫberan, beram etc, tabara `priestess' : av. fra-bǝrǝtar- `carrier of things, secondary priest' (compare lat. fertōr-ius, umbr. arsfertur), fem. Old Indian bhartrī́, av. barǝϑ rī `supporter, upholder, mother';

Illyr. displays satem and centum characteristics similar to alb. and Old Indian also illyr. adds prothetic v- before bare initial vowels like alb. hence *u- > v- in illyr. dialects and modern alb.

Here illyr. Buctor : ven. Fuctor : av. baoxtar- `liberator' proves that av. a satem language can display centum characteristics. Alb. follows the same illyr. - ven. pattern in -tor,-tar suffixes. The tendency in illyr. -g- > -ct- shows the intermediary phase from centum to satem in later alb.: common alb. -g(h)- > -th-, -k- > -t- phonetic mutation in the middle of the word.

Clearly alb. banë, Illyr. VN Buni, PN B οῦννος, Messap. βύριον, Thrak. PN Κασί - βουνον prove that illyr. was indeed a satem language displaying also centum characteristics. The common alb. shift t > nt > n inherited from illyr. and thrak. proves the common origin of those Balkan lang.

Old Indian sávana-m, savá- m. `Kelterung des Soma' : illyr. Savus prove the satem nature of illyr.-alb. Proto illyr. was probbaly the bridge between satem and centum languages.
Illyr. VN Βρεῦνοι : Breones (from *Breu̯ones) evolved according to alb. phonetic laws -t > -nt > -n hence *Breu̯ones < *Breu̯ontes. But only alb. displays the common -k > -th, -t shift found in illyr. VN Breuci : illyr. VN Βρεῦνοι (from *Breu̯ones), hence alb. is a dialect of illyr. Both alb. and older illyr. display centum and satem characteristics.

Finally from Root / lemma: ĝhau-, ĝhau̯ǝ- : `to call' derived Root / lemma: dei-1, dei̯ǝ-, dī-, di̯ā- : `to shine; day; sun; sky god, god'. The phonetic shift ĝh- > d-, z- is unique Illyrian, Albanian and satem languages in general. Hence the origin of a thunder god, noise god was among satem speaking people.
This illyr. cognate bears the hallmark of a satem langue when illyr. dialects seem mostly kentum.
alb. ah `beech' (*oskā)ö; (rather inaccurate etymology because of alb. ahi, ahu `beech' -i, -u m. endings: illyr.-pannon. VN Osi.)

/ lemma: sk̂āi-, sk̂ǝi- : sk̂ī- Meaning: to glimmer (of wet things); shadow]. Because illyr. (and its offspring alb.) shows satem and centum characteristics it could be the oldest IE tongue. Illyr. similarly to alb. preferred truncated form illyr.-pannon. VN Osi against its older illyr.-pannon. PN Osones which is another sound proof alb. descendant of illyr.

Alb. geg. kla, kja `cry, lament, call (the dead)' : illyr. EN Ves-cleves : Old Indian vasu-śravas `possessing good fame', where illyr. seems the intermediary between satem and centum.

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Re: Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#5

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:20 pm

Pokorny's work is really incisive and convincing for he soundly argues for phonetic commonalities between Illyrian and Albanian. The more scholars search, the more they become convinced of Illyrian ancestry of the Albanian. In following I shall post some passages from Edgar Polome, a trustworthy linguist.

He holds that Albanian emerged roughly in the same zone where Illyri propri dicti (that is genuine Illyrians) used to live. The less accessible mountainous areas were little affected by Romanization.

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The misleading belief that Illyrian got extinct at the time of Slavic invasion falls short of convincing. It is beyond any cavil that Slavs while entering in Dalmatia, they found there a local idiom which was ostensibly not Romanized. It may be tempting to assume that Illyrian was still spoken in scattered pockets in Bosnia. It would be a misnomer to think that all of them were Romanized Illyrians, as some scholars claim.

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While tackling the problem of Albanian, one must not neglect Romanian. The debates whether proto-Romanian emerged in central Balkans or in north of Danube are still hanging around. Romanian scholars are lead to believe that Romanian was spoken uninterrupted in Dacia, ruling out every possibility of any southern origin. I am more inclined to believe that proto-Romanian was conceived in a territory where Albanian-speakers prevailed.

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Source: The Linguistic Situation in the Western Provinces of the Roman Empire.
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Re: Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#6

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:51 pm

A more balanced survey on history of Albanian was conducted by Alexandru Madgearu.


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Source: The Wars of the Balkan Peninsula: Their Medieval Origins
The Dacian scenario is not embraced by serious linguists, although some of them are still endorsing it. Most importantly, there is no source which hints to any major migration of Dacians in modern Albania. It's worth of noting that Dacian was presumably close to Illyrian, if the term accurately describe certain analogies between these two languages. Jay_Albanian_fan had an interesting hypothesis for he held that certain Latinized Illyrians settled in Dacia where they became as proto-Romanians. Indeed this is not far from the truth as Illyrians constantly emigrated toward Dacia.
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Re: Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#7

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:46 pm

Some of linguists ain't adept or entitled to speak of Albanian, let alone its origin. Their take on linguists is biased because they don't know Albanian in its entirety. Some of them feign agnosticism and this does not allow them to have an insightful take on the problem.

Olga Mišeska Tomić opt for a compromise view, according to which Albanian should be looked in Dardania. Yet she assert that linguistic state was more complicated that it appears at first sight. Beside Latin which was spoken within coastal cities, Albanian as a direct continuation of Illyrian was held into more mountainous areas.

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Networking Phylogeny for Indo-European and Austronesian Languages
Authors: Philippe Blanchard1, Filippo Petroni2, Maurizio Serva3 & Dimitri Volchenkov4
1Bielefeld-Bonn Stochastic Research Center, Universität Bielefeld, Universitätsstr. 25,D-33615 Bielefeld, Germany.


Here is a logical critic to those scholars who place a great deal of emphasis to the lack of written Albanian. They have obfuscated the whole issue by discouraging scholars to tackle the origin of Albanian because it was lately documentated.

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Indo-European Linguistics
Michael Meier-Brugger (Author), Charles Gertmenian (Translator)
Publisher: Walter de Gruyter (October 2003)
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Re: Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#8

Post by Sanxhaku » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:23 pm

Bravo Albpelasgian ke nje reputacion nga ana ime

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Re: Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#9

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:47 pm

Gary Rendsburg opined that:

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Eblaitica: Essays on the Ebla Archives and Eblaite Language, Volume 2, edited by Cyrus Herzl Gordon, Gary Rendsburg, Nathan H. Winter, p. 124
I got some quibbles here. To state that Illyrian and Albanian are close just because they reside within the same territory is a gross oversimplification. Instead it would be important to notice several phonetic features which share both Illyrian and Albanian. Those commonalities are conceivably the most tangible arguments on this issue.
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Re: Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#10

Post by bardus » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:37 pm

Ketu me poshte po rendis disa fjale qe futen tek termat nautike te gjuhes shqipe, te mbledhura ne nje mase te madhe nga fjalori i shkelqyer historik i S.E.Mann ,si dhe burime te tjera.Qellimi eshte, vetem evidentimi i fjalorit te nje populli qe ka jetuar ne bregdet dhe ka lundruar ne det te hapur .Kur flasim per terma detare e para qe duhet te permendet eshte fjala DET 'sea' , emer i ardhur nga perendesha'' Tethys /ˈtiːθɪs, ˈtɛθɪs/ (Ancient Greek: Τηθύς), daughter of Uranus and Gaia[1] was an archaic Titaness and aquatic sea goddess'' te cilen e ruajtem me mijra vjet.Prova e dyte e forte eshte emri i Detit Jon qe ka qene edhe emri i vjeter i Detit Adriatik te cilin romaket e paten perkthyer ne Mare Nostrum nga i Jone ''our' pastaj me rradhe nje numer i kosiderueshem fjalesh ''Maritime,Nautical Albanian Wordslist''

ngjalë 'eel' < *engella, even if related correctly to Illyrian 'EggelaneV

lugatë 'rudder',

DULFË.rudder, timon',

shul 'mast',

pëlhurë 'sail',

valë 'wave'

mat 'beach'

vâ 'ford, anchorage'

albure 'mast '

ane, anije , aní an(ë) 'vessel'

anadet 'seashore'

andine 'yard' (of mast )

askath ,'kedge'

balli anijes ,'bow of ship'

bigje 'scale of fish'

brancin 'sea fish'

bruf deti ,'small white fish,flat sea fish '

bume 'brigantine sail' , boom

cekell deti 'spinach'

guhone 'oyster '

gjase 'anchorage,landing-stage '

kernall 'ocean '

kerp,dy-grep ,'anchor'

komtore' harbour'

lekue , lkue 'seeweed '

libohem ne '-aproach '

lic ,'small shark '

lik-u i detit 'sea level '

lumpar 'oyster'

lunder 'boat ferry barge '

lunderthyeme 'shipwrecked'

lundrar,lundertar , ' sailor '

Lundroj , 'sail'

mlundroj 'embark '

mol 'pier '

BASHI,

KIÇI,

KALLUMA,

BALLASTAMA - Vazhdimi i kurrizit ,gjindet në pjesën e përparme të anijes.

ASHTA KIÇIT - Vazhdimi i kurrizit të anijes gjindet në pjesën e mbrapte .

KORBAT - Brinjet e anijes , janë të lidhura me kallum në linje trasversale .

BRACULLA - Pjesë e rendesishme që lidh anet e anijes , gjindet në bash edhe në kiç.

DIREKU,





Fatkeqesisht nuk e kam fjalorin e plote te Mann dhe jam i sigurte se ka edhe shume fjale te tjera.

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Re: Albanian position among Indo-European languages

#11

Post by ALBPelasgian » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:41 pm

Eric Hamp hammered home all theories that have been put forth in regard with Albanian:
  "Various views have also been expressed with respect to pairings within Indo-European. Bàrtoli (1932) thought that
Albanian agreed with Baltic more in features of conservatism but with Greek and the southern languages in innovations. Earlier Pedersen had seen a kinship between Albanian and Armenian (1900a). Though Jokl subscribed to a closer relation to Baltic, he also explored possible connections with Keltic (1927c). Weigand (1927) saw a kinship with Thracian, a view shared by Gabinskij (1956). On the other hand Albanian is often rather casually related to Illyrian as in the argument recently advanced in Svoboda and Nezbedová (1967:49, 228, 244) by V. Polák and others claiming a derivation of Vranja [reka [??WF] etc.] from a kindred form to Geg vorr Tosk varrë "grave, tomb" (which J. Zaimov however relates [Svoboda and Nezbedová 1967:229] to vrana "corvus"). Yet other scholars, such as Cimochowski (1958), have supported an Illyrian kinship for Albanian with much more serious arguments.Then Georgiev (1960) pairs Albanian with what he distinguished under the name Daco-Mysian and extracts from toponyms and substratum material in Romanian. I find Poláks view (1957b), which doubts even the Indo-European character of Albanian, quite unacceptable, as also his 1967 argument. Recent work which ties in with the competing claims from the ancient Balkan languages is well represented by Russu (1967), which has some weaknesses but which is well informed and documented especially on the history of the question; Duridanov (1969), with very full documentation and incorporating the Baltic claims; and Gindin (1967), which draws heavily on the substrata which have been argued by Georgiev. For a bibliography of Thracian see Velkova (1967). Budimir (1965) follows Pedersen's thesis of three series of Indo-European gutturals with distinctive reflexes in Albanian, but his examples might advantageously be improved."  
The noted Italian linguist, Vitore Pissani in his article “Les origines de la langue albanaise” (1964) asserted:
  "... l’histoire d’une langue ne peut se faire’qu’en partant du présent pour arriver aux traditions qu’il présupose’. Il s’ensuit de tout cela, que pour reconstruir l’histoire de l’albanais il faudre partir de l’albanais tel qu’il est parlé en Albanie par une population qui dans sa grande majorité représente la continuation genétique des groupements humains qui ont vécu dans ce pays dès les temps de la préhistoire la plus reculée, en considérant que la langue albanaise d’aujourd’hui est l’aboutissement des créations linguistiques des générations qui se sont succédées en Albanie depuis ces temps-là jusqu’à nos jours".

The history of a language can be envisaged only "by starting from the present to reach to the tradition it presupposes". It follows that to achieve the reconstruction of history of the Albanian as spoken in Albania by a population which in a great part represents a genetic continuation of human groups which used to live in this country since the oldest periods of proto-history, considering that modern Albanian is a result of linguistic creations of successive generations until modern times.  
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