"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#16

Post by jay_albania_fan » Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:57 pm

Orakulli wrote:I think *hekur is related to the albanian verb;Hek(geg)=pull out.I think that /ur/ is a suffix in this case.The common “ur” suffix for many adjectives in albanian language is indicated by /ur/,i hek-ur(hequr).
Albanian heq (or hek) and its older/dialectal form helq (an even older *helk) comes from PIE *selk-. Something would have to explain the loss of the "l" in "hekur". I would expect to find the forms: *hequr or *helqur which do not exist.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#17

Post by Orakulli » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:46 am

I'm afraid that your *PIE doesn't even exist.It is a production of the linguistic ignorance.Why we have the word *udheheq-udhehek and "heq udhen, which means *leads and no *doesn't take away?
*hekuri or Iron from the dust is taken,or isht i hequr,or i *hekur.
The PIE theory doesn't use scientific logic,which is so simple as it had been at the time when the really our people discovery Hekurin.
We don't know who discovered iron.We know only that it was discovered before written history.
Is the word *hekur created before written history?
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#18

Post by jay_albania_fan » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:59 am

Orakulli wrote:I'm afraid that your *PIE doesn't even exist.It is a production of the linguistic ignorance.Why we have the word *udheheq-udhehek and "heq udhen, which means *leads and no *doesn't take away?
*hekuri or Iron from the dust is taken,or isht i hequr,or i *hekur.
The PIE theory doesn't use scientific logic,which is so simple as it had been at the time when the really our people discovery Hekurin.
We don't know who discovered iron.We know only that it was discovered before written history.
Is the word *hekur created before written history?
Indo-European has been demonstrated to be valid by all linguistics scholars. There is no debating its validity at all. Every branch of Indo-European shows regular sound correspondences between the branches. This is not debatable nor is discussing the validity of IE the reason for my post. The reason for my post is to discuss the etymology of this mysterious word.

Well, written history really does not have to with the origins of the word "hekur". The origins of the word "hekur" may or may not predate writing as the etymology of the word is a mystery.

As my earlier post demonstrates, the words for "iron" in the Indo-European languages come from various sources. There is no other IE language with a cognate to Albanian "hekur", so we will have to reconstruct the root from Albanian. If the word comes from a substrate language that would be interesting as well although there would be no way to know.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#19

Post by Orakulli » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:52 am

The PIE uses only to collect one detail to compare words.This detail is so simple.To compare for example *whether con *wether?Can you say me what's the difference between them?In accordance with PIE they have to have the same signification???Are they new words or old words??
Have they a common origin?
Why their meaning is so different?
Are they descendants of a same word?
The more you know about something,the easer it is to make up your thoughts.
With *PIE we wouldn't know where to begin or to end.
The word Hekur become form the combination of two concepts "hek+gur".This is my truth=*Hekur-i from the Stone is taken.
I don't want to know the common origin of the word *night,but why it is "night,or *nat.The *Pie doesn't give me that answer and I couldn't never know how the language is created.The Proto-Indo-European language theory blocks the discovery about languages.
If we found out which language is oldest we would find out ....the truth.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#20

Post by jay_albania_fan » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:59 pm

Orakulli wrote:The PIE uses only to collect one detail to compare words.This detail is so simple.To compare for example *whether con *wether?Can you say me what's the difference between them?In accordance with PIE they have to have the same signification???Are they new words or old words??
Have they a common origin?
Why their meaning is so different?
Are they descendants of a same word?
The more you know about something,the easer it is to make up your thoughts.
With *PIE we wouldn't know where to begin or to end.
The word Hekur become form the combination of two concepts "hek+gur".This is my truth=*Hekur-i from the Stone is taken.
I don't want to know the common origin of the word *night,but why it is "night,or *nat.The *Pie doesn't give me that answer and I couldn't never know how the language is created.The Proto-Indo-European language theory blocks the discovery about languages.
If we found out which language is oldest we would find out ....the truth.
To say that Indo-European blocks the discovery of language is an utterly uninformed statement. It is a valid language family and forms in all of its daughter languages can be reconstructed. Albanian IS and Indo-European language without any doubt. This is not open to debate nor discussion. There is no reason for such a discussion and this will not be the discussion on this topic. Everyone who discusses language on an informed level must have a common background and understanding of linguistics. I suggest reading academic books on historical linguistics. One can reconstruct a proto-language based on the outcomes of the daughter languages. No reconstructed language can give all the answers because a reconstruction is only as good as the amount of information we have to put in it. Indo-European is a rather well defined language family especially due to its age. Other language families aren't as strong due to the lack of data or the remoteness of their relationships.

Take the word night: Albanian: natë, Hittite: nekuz, Irish: anochd, English: night, Tocharian: nakcu, Russian: noštĭ, Greek: nuks, Latin: nox, Lithuanian: naktis, Sanskrit: nakti, Welsh nos. Obviously these forms descend from the common parent language and can be reconstructed. This is true of ALL valid genetic language families. Keep in mind Indo-European is not the only language family in the world, there are a couple hundred. The 10,000 or so languages in the world fit into a few hundred families. Families range in size from 1 language to hundreds of languages.


Well for the words "wether" and "whether", we have the Old English forms. "wether" in Old English is wether and "whether" is "hwether". Wh-words in English were originally spelled hw-. While in British English "wh" is pronounced /w/ in many American dialects and it is still pronounced /hw/. Old English wether can be reconstructed to Proto-Germanic *wethruz meaning a yearling, the Proto-IE form is *wet-ru, *wet meaning year. While Old English hwether can be reconstructed to Proto-Germanic *hwatharaz, the PIE form being *kWo-tero-. Compare Sanskrit: katara-, Greek poteros, Lithuanian katras.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#21

Post by Orakulli » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:59 pm

"Adam was the only man who,when he said e good thing,knew that nobody had said it before Him."
-Mark Twain
Language families are groups of languages.Within e specific group,the languages are related because they developed from the same language.The same language,I think,of the Indo-Europian language family is the Albanian language.The albanian language doesn't belong (like a simple member) to the Indo-Europian language family,as do many other languages.It is the mother of all languages of this family.It is related with another African-Asian-American families. That's why some its words have the same signification with the languages out of the Indo-Europian family.For example in old Chinese the word *rain is "shui" and in albanian language is "shi_shiu".
I think that the Albanian language is the only language which,when it said a word,no another language had said it before.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#22

Post by jay_albania_fan » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:00 pm

Orakulli wrote:"Adam was the only man who,when he said e good thing,knew that nobody had said it before Him."
-Mark Twain
Language families are groups of languages.Within e specific group,the languages are related because they developed from the same language.The same language,I think,of the Indo-Europian language family is the Albanian language.The albanian language doesn't belong (like a simple member) to the Indo-Europian language family,as do many other languages.It is the mother of all languages of this family.It is related with another African-Asian-American families. That's why some its words have the same signification with the languages out of the Indo-Europian family.For example in old Chinese the word *rain is "shui" and in albanian language is "shi_shiu".
I think that the Albanian language is the only language which,when it said a word,no another language had said it before.

In my opinion, Albanian is spoken where the Indo-European Urheimat was located and I think the Albanians are the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Although Albanian may be at the homeland like every language in the world, it has also changed. No language stays static as we humans are not computers.

Although Chinese has borrowed a few Indo-European words from Tocharian and Iranian, Chinese is not relatable to Indo-European and Chinese is a Sino-Tibetan language. In Mandarin Chinese shuǐ is water. The Old Chinese form is lhui'. This is why you don't compare two modern languages like Mandarin and Albanian and take their modern phonetic character at face value. You have also look at all of the languages related to Mandarin Chinese such as Cantonese, Min, Wu, and other less closely related languages such as Tibetan, Kachin, Burmese, Bai, Tujia, and a few hundred languages most people have never heard of... Bottom line you need to find a regular sound correspondence and Mandarin and Albanian do not have any regular sound correspondences.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#23

Post by Orakulli » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:01 pm

In my opinion, Albanian is spoken where the Indo-European Urheimat was located and I think the Albanians are the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Although Albanian may be at the homeland like every language in the world, it has also changed. No language stays static as we humans are not computers.

Although Chinese has borrowed a few Indo-European words from Tocharian and Iranian, Chinese is not relatable to Indo-European and Chinese is a Sino-Tibetan language. In Mandarin Chinese shuǐ is water. The Old Chinese form is lhui'. This is why you don't compare two modern languages like Mandarin and Albanian and take their modern phonetic character at face value. You have also look at all of the languages related to Mandarin Chinese such as Cantonese, Min, Wu, and other less closely related languages such as Tibetan, Kachin, Burmese, Bai, Tujia, and a few hundred languages most people have never heard of... Bottom line you need to find a regular sound correspondence and Mandarin and Albanian do not have any regular sound correspondences.
You think I must not compare two modern languages?Why?What is wrong on that?
Can you figure out that *ui-uj and *lhui-shui are not relatable?
You are saying about the sound correspondece and you don't see the word correspodence in that case.How is it possible?
The Albanian language has another word that is related with ui-uj-shi-shiu.This word is *shuj.
Why in the Chinese language the sound of the number one is only *i and in the Albanian language is "nji=niii ????
Because UI is older than *SHUI,while *nji is younger than *i.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#24

Post by jay_albania_fan » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:45 pm

Orakulli wrote: You think I must not compare two modern languages?Why?What is wrong on that?
Can you figure out that *ui-uj and *lhui-shui are not relatable?
You are saying about the sound correspondece and you don't see the word correspodence in that case.How is it possible?
The Albanian language has another word that is related with ui-uj-shi-shiu.This word is *shuj.
Why in the Chinese language the sound of the number one is only *i and in the Albanian language is "nji=niii ????
Because UI is older than *SHUI,while *nji is younger than *i.
If two languages are related, there will be a regular sound correspondence. This means in a cognate if we find an "sh" in a Mandarin word then we should always find a corresponding "sh" word in Albanian. This is why Mandarin shui and Albanian shi are not cognates.

Examples, 'ten' is "shi" in Mandarin, "dhjete" in Albanian...'six' is "gjashte" in Albanian, 'liu' in Mandarin...'seven' in Albanian is "shtate", 'qi' in Mandarin...

Also the "sh" in Mandarin is not the same sound as the Albanian "sh". Mandarin "sh" stands for the voiceless retroflex fricative. In Albanian the "sh" is a voiceless postalveolar fricative.

You won't find ANY regular sound correspondences between Mandarin and Albanian. Also due to Mandarin being a monosyllabic language you may find what seems to be a regular sound correspondence if you find two or three cases. You can compares any two languages in the world and find chance resemblances. Due to humans having a limited range of vowels and consonants we can produce, of course there will be many cases where two unrelated languages will have similar sounding words. This is due to coincidence. You can read about the fallacies of mass comparisons.

It is totally pointless to compare Albanian and Mandarin. These two languages have been demonstrated to be totally unrelatable. You will NOT find one academic source that states they are relatable. You could waste your time comparing Mandarin and Albanian, but you won't find anything. Other scholars have been there before us. Albanian has been established in Indo-European and Mandarin has been established in Sino-Tibetan. You could perhaps compare Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Sino-Tibetan, but you won't find much there as scholars have been there long before any of us were even born...

I suggest reading more academic books on linguistics so you understand how one should actually compare any two languages in the world. A lot of the world's languages' relationships have been worked out due to the over hundred years of scholarly work on them.

Do you know how many languages in the world have an "i" for their number 1? Thousands of languages and and also thousands of languages do not. Of these thousands of languages, some are related and some aren't. Do you know that most languages in the world have the "i" vowel. I would estimate less than .01% of the world's languages do not have the "i" vowel.

As well the Proto-Chinese form is *hlyəd for water anyway which as you can see is looking a lot different from Albanian shi. Other Indo-European cognates with Albanian shi are Tocharian A swase (rain), Tocharian B swese (rain), Old Prussian suge (rain), and Greek huei (rain). You will find a regular sound correspondence between Greek h and Albanian sh as in Greek hepta (seven) and Albanian shtate (seven). Albanian sh descends from PIE *s in certain environments. This has already been worked out and is well established.

If one reads about Mandarin Chinese, one would realize that is has had MANY sound changes from Old Chinese. Mandarin has lost all final consonants in words except -r, -n and -ng. It has reduced all consonant clusters. Mandarin has lost its voiced stops. There are probably a hundred words in Mandarin Chinese which are by chance look a lot like English words. For example, "ear" in English is "er" in Mandarin. These words are NOT related just because they look similar. Because Mandarin "er" goes back to Old Chinese nhə'. Mandarin has a very specific sound change of certain nasals become "r".

Instead of wasting one's time comparing two languages which aren't relatable and probably never will be. Why not spend research time going through the Albanian lexicon which is not known to be Indo-European (inherited), not Turkish, not Arabic, not Latin, not Greek and isolating these words. These unknown words are what will be interesting in research. This is why a word like "hekur" is interesting. Perhaps these mystery words will tell us more about the Indo-European language the Albanians spoke which was lost in the Indo-European daughter languages. Also, perhaps these are some words the Indo-European Albanians may have adopted from the non-IE neighbors they may have had...

I have an academic degree in linguistics and I have been studying languages and linguistics for over 10 years. I suggest if you want to understand historical linguistics better, read academic books on historical linguistics. There should be some at your library, google books, or books you can buy online. If you are in college, see if you can take a class on historical linguistics. It will give you the background and terminology. If you take a historical linguistics class, you will learn all about regular sound correspondences, cognates, and valid genetic language families.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#25

Post by Orakulli » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:01 am

Uj,in Chinese is pronounced at the same way like in albanian language,UJ.The difference is only *s,which becomes *sh (no matter).It is the same case that I wrote here about the word "morau" of the Japanese language,which has the same signification with the word *marr-mora of Albanian,or about the word *iki e cetra
But,I'm not interested in Comparative languages.I'm interested in the languages codes.The Comparative didn't resolve anything about languages.It is only a language statistic.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#26

Post by jay_albania_fan » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:49 am

Orakulli wrote:Uj,in Chinese is pronounced at the same way like in albanian language,UJ.The difference is only *s,which becomes *sh (no matter).It is the same case that I wrote here about the word "morau" of the Japanese language,which has the same signification with the word *marr-mora of Albanian,or about the word *iki e cetra
But,I'm not interested in Comparative languages.I'm interested in the languages codes.The Comparative didn't resolve anything about languages.It is only a language statistic.
The likelihood of Japanese and Indo-European being related is a bit greater than Indo-European and Sino-Tibetan. Comparing Japanese and Indo-European thus would be a more interesting endeavour. If and ONLY if Albanian has forms which are not themselves Indo-European roots or borrowings from another language, but which seem to be native terms then those could be used to compare with Japanese. Although you have to reconstruct the Albanian root to an older form perhaps. Also, you need to know the Old Japanese forms and not modern language. For example, modern Japanese "one" is hitotsu and in Old Japanese it is pitotu, etc. You won't know this unless you do research in academic books. Then once you have good data from each language, then you compare them and try to find a regular sound correspondence. Honestly though many other linguistics have already attempted this and have not been very successful.

One can't do a language code of any kind unless one has a solid background in linguistics. One should study more phonology, phonetics, and historical linguistics first and then you go into one's experiments and making a hypothesis. If one does not have enough of a background, then the lack of knowledge will show. Comparing a Mandarin "sh" and an Albanian "sh" is like comparing apples with oranges. They aren't the same thing at all either in their phonetic structure nor their origins. Don't be fooled by Mandarin romanization. It is a recent creation as Chinese of course was not written in the Roman alphabet. Mandarin Chinese "ch", "zh", "q", "j", "x", etc. don't phonetically correspond to anything in Albanian or English.

The suggestion for anyone wanting to do any kind of linguistics is ACADEMICS.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#27

Post by Orakulli » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:13 pm

The sounds(no letters) are the same for every language.The difference is that some languages have more and some others have less.Do not confuse the concept of the alfabet(codified symbol ) with the concept of the spoken sounds.
In fact,it is a simple concept.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#28

Post by jay_albania_fan » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:51 pm

Orakulli wrote:The sounds(no letters) are the same for every language.The difference is that some languages have more and some others have less.Do not confuse the concept of the alfabet(codified symbol ) with the concept of the spoken sounds.
In fact,it is a simple concept.
Sounds are not the same for every language. A phonemic /t/ in various languages does not have the same phonetic value in those languages. You should read about voice onset time (VOT). As I have stated before I have an academic degree in linguistics so when it comes to historical linguistics, writing systems, phonology, and phonetics I am rarely confused my friend. :) I don't confuse writing with the "spoken word" nor has anything I have written would lend anyone to think that.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#29

Post by Zeus10 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:11 pm

Jay, although you follow a very classic methodology in your arguments without risking involving yourself in revisionistic ideas, your knowledge is vast, strong and you are very flexible in resolving problems that need a second opinion. Your participation is appreciated a lot from me, and I beleive from everyone else.
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Re: Hekur, the Albanian word for Iron

#30

Post by jay_albania_fan » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:40 pm

Zeus10 wrote:Jay, although you follow a very classic methodology in your arguments without risking involving yourself in revisionistic ideas, your knowledge is vast, strong and you are very flexible in resolving problems that need a second opinion. Your participation is appreciated a lot from me, and I beleive from everyone else.
Thanks Zeus10. I think many of these interesting Albanian words like "hekur", "ka", or "kokë" will only enrich what we will know of Illyrian and thus better know IE as well through the words Albanian has kept but were lost in the rest of IE.

One thing I do find lazy about some linguists is the claim of so many Latin loans when the much better explanation is Illyrian interdialectal borrowing. Some linguists claim "qen" and "qind" are from Latin. Albanian "qen" coming from Illyrian "can" makes a lot more sense. Since the Illyrians spoke many dialects, it is not a surprise that Albanian would have some forms of the various dialects. This interdialectal borrowing can explain some of the forms not expected.

Besides the obvious and specific religious, cultural, or scientific terms which Albanian borrowed from Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, or Turkish (as did English, French, and every other language borrow from these languages), much of the Albanian core vocabulary is inherited Illyrian.
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