"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Strabo, trying to explain the word barbarian.

Talk about the languages.
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Strabo, trying to explain the word barbarian.

#1

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:22 am

What do you think about the following conclusion of Strabo, where he pointed out that a barbarian differ from a Helene only from the harsh accent.

Strabo

[col]When the poet says,Masthles in turn led the Carians, of barbarian speech, we have no reason to inquire how it is that, although he knew so many barbarian tribes, he speaks of the Carians alone as "of barbarian speech," but nowhere speaks of "barbarians." Thucydides, therefore, is not correct, for he says that Homer "did not use the term 'barbarians' either, because the Hellenes on their part had not yet been distinguished under one name as opposed to them"; for the poet himself refutes the statement that the Hellenes had not yet been so distinguished when he says,My husband, whose fame is wide through Hellas and mid-Argos. And again,And if thou dost wish to journey through Hellas and mid-Argos. Further, if they were not called "barbarians," how could they properly be called a people "of barbarian speech?" So neither Thucydides is correct, nor Apollodorus the grammarian, who says that the general term was used by the Hellenes in a peculiar and abusive sense against the Carians, and in particular by the Ionians, who hated them because of their enmity and the continuous military campaigns; for it was right to name them barbarians in this sense. But I raise the question, Why does he call them people "of barbarian speech," but not even once calls them barbarians? "Because," Apollodorus replies, "the plural does not fall in with the metre; this is why he does not call them barbarians." But though this case does not fall in with metre, the nominative case does not differ metrically from that of "Dardanians": Trojans and Lycians and Dardanians. So, also, the word "Trojan," inof what kind the Trojan horses are. Neither is he correct when he says that the language of the Carians is very harsh, for it is not, but even has very many Greek words mixed up with it, according to the Philip who wrote The Carica. I suppose that the word "barbarian" was at first uttered onomatopoetically in reference to people who enunciated words only with difficulty and talked harshly and raucously, like our words "battarizein," "traulizein," and "psellizein"; for we are by nature very much inclined to denote sounds by words that sound like them, on account of their homogeneity. Wherefore onomatopoetic words abound in our language, as, for example, "celaryzein," and also "clange," "psophos," "boe," and "crotos," most of which are by now used in their proper sense. Accordingly, when all who pronounced words thickly were being called barbarians onomatopoetically, it appeared that the pronunciations of all alien races were likewise thick, I mean of those that were not Greek. Those, therefore, they called barbarians in the special sense of the term, at first derisively, meaning that they pronounced words thickly or harshly; and then we misused the word as a general ethnic term, thus making a logical distinction between the Greeks and all other races. The fact is, however, that through our long acquaintance and intercourse with the barbarians this effect was at last seen to be the result, not of a thick pronunciation or any natural defect in the vocal organs, but of the peculiarities of their several languages. And there appeared another faulty and barbarian-like pronunciation in our language, whenever any person speaking Greek did not pronounce it correctly, but pronounced the words like barbarians who are only beginning to learn Greek and are unable to speak it accurately, as is also the case with us in speaking their languages. This was particularly the case with the Carians, for, although the other peoples were not yet having very much intercourse with the Greeks nor even trying to live in Greek fashion or to learn our language--with the exception, perhaps, of rare persons who by chance, and singly, mingled with a few of the Greeks--yet the Carians roamed throughout the whole of Greece, serving on expeditions for pay. Already, therefore, the barbarous element in their Greek was strong, as a result of their expeditions in Greece; and after this it spread much more, from the time they took up their abode with the Greeks in the islands; and when they were driven thence into Asia, even here they were unable to live apart from the Greeks, I mean when the Ionians and Dorians later crossed over to Asia. The term "barbarize," also, has the same origin; for we are wont to use this too in reference to those who speak Greek badly, not to those who talk Carian. So, therefore, we must interpret the terms "speak barbarously" and "barbarously-speaking" as applying to those who speak Greek badly. And it was from the term "Carise" that the term "barbarize" was used in a different sense in works on the art of speaking Greek; and so was the term "soloecise," whether derived from Soli, or made up in some other way.|τοῦ ποιητοῦ δ' εἰρηκότος οὑτωσί

Μάσθλης αὖ Καρῶν ἡγήσατο βαρβαροφώνων,

οὐκ ἔχει λόγον πῶς τοσαῦτα εἰδὼς ἔθνη βάρβαρα μόνους εἴρηκε βαρβαροφώνους τοὺς Κᾶρας, βαρβάρους δ' οὐδένας· οὔτ' οὖν Θουκυδίδης ὀρθῶς· οὐδὲ γὰρ λέγεσθαί φησι βαρβάρους διὰ τὸ μηδὲ Ἕλληνάς πω ἀντίπαλον εἰς ἓν ὄνομα ἀποκεκρίσθαι· τό τε γὰρ μηδὲ Ἕλληνάς πω ψεῦδος αὐτὸς ὁ ποιητὴς ἀπελέγχει

ἀνδρός, τοῦ κλέος εὐρὺ καθ' Ἑλλάδα καὶ μέσον Ἄργος.

καὶ πάλιν

εἴτ' ἐθέλεις τραφθῆναι ἀν' Ἑλλάδα καὶ μέσον Ἄργος.

μὴ λεγομένων τε βαρβάρων πῶς ἔμελλεν εὖ λεχθήσεσθαι τὸ βαρβαροφώνων; οὔτε δὴ οὗτος εὖ οὔτ' Ἀπολλόδωρος ὁ γραμματικός, ὅτι τῷ κοινῷ ὀνόματι ἰδίως καὶ λοιδόρως ἐχρῶντο οἱ Ἕλληνες κατὰ τῶν Καρῶν, καὶ μάλιστα οἱ Ἴωνες μισοῦντες αὐτοὺς διὰ τὴν ἔχθραν καὶ τὰς συνεχεῖς στρατείας· ἐχρῆν γὰρ οὕτως βαρβάρους ὀνομάζειν. ἡμεῖς δὲ ζητοῦμεν διὰ τί βαρβαροφώνους καλεῖ, βαρβάρους δ' οὐδ' ἅπαξ. “ὅτ” φησί “τὸ πληθυντικὸν εἰς τὸ μέτρον οὐκ ἐμπίπτει, διὰ τοῦτ' οὐκ εἴρηκε βαρβάρους.” ἀλλ' αὕτη μὲν ἡ πτῶσις οὐκ ἐμπίπτει, ἡ δ' ὀρθὴ οὐ διαφέρει τῆς Δάρδανοι

Τρῶες καὶ Λύκιοι καὶ Δάρδανοι.

τοιοῦτον δὲ καὶ τό

οἷοι Τρώιοι ἵπποι.

οὐδέ γε ὅτι τραχυτάτη ἡ γλῶττα τῶν Καρῶν· οὐ γάρ ἐστιν ἀλλὰ καὶ πλεῖστα Ἑλληνικὰ ὀνόματα ἔχει καταμεμιγμένα, ὥς φησι Φίλιππος ὁ τὰ Καρικὰ γράψας. οἶμαι δὲ τὸ βάρβαρον κατ' ἀρχὰς ἐκπεφωνῆσθαι οὕτως κατ' ὀνοματοποιίαν ἐπὶ τῶν δυσεκφόρως καὶ σκληρῶς καὶ τραχέως λαλούντων, ὡς τὸ βατταρίζειν καὶ τραυλίζειν καὶ ψελλίζειν. εὐφυέστατοι γάρ ἐσμεν τὰς φωνὰς ταῖς ὁμοίαις φωναῖς κατονομάζειν διὰ τὸ ὁμογενές· ᾖ δὴ καὶ πλεονάζουσιν ἐνταῦθα αἱ ὀνοματοποιίαι, οἷον τὸ κελαρύζειν καὶ κλαγγὴ δὲ καὶ ψόφος καὶ βοὴ καὶ κρότος, ὧν τὰ πλεῖστα ἤδη καὶ κυρίως ἐκφέρεται· πάντων δὴ τῶν παχυστομούντων οὕτως βαρβάρων λεγομένων, ἐφάνη τὰ τῶν ἀλλοεθνῶν στόματα τοιαῦτα, λέγω δὲ τὰ τῶν μὴ Ἑλλήνων. ἐκείνους οὖν ἰδίως ἐκάλεσαν βαρβάρους, ἐν ἀρχαῖς μὲν κατὰ τὸ λοίδορον, ὡς ἂν παχυστόμους ἢ τραχυστόμους, εἶτα κατεχρησάμεθα ὡς ἐθνικῷ κοινῷ ὀνόματι ἀντιδιαιροῦντες πρὸς τοὺς Ἕλληνας. καὶ γὰρ δὴ τῇ πολλῇ συνηθείᾳ καὶ ἐπιπλοκῇ τῶν βαρβάρων οὐκέτι ἐφαίνετο κατὰ παχυστομίαν καὶ ἀφυΐαν τινὰ τῶν φωνητηρίων ὀργάνων τοῦτο συμβαῖνον, ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὰς τῶν διαλέκτων ἰδιότητας. ἄλλη δέ τις ἐν τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ διαλέκτῳ ἀνεφάνη κακοστομία καὶ οἷον βαρβαροστομία, εἴ τις ἑλληνίζων μὴ κατορθοίη, ἀλλ' οὕτω λέγοι τὰ ὀνόματα ὡς οἱ βάρβαροι οἱ εἰσαγόμενοι εἰς τὸν ἑλληνισμὸν οὐκ ἰσχύοντες ἀρτιστομεῖν, ὡς οὐδ' ἡμεῖς ἐν ταῖς ἐκείνων διαλέκτοις. τοῦτο δὲ μάλιστα συνέβη τοῖς Καρσί· τῶν γὰρ ἄλλων οὔτ' ἐπιπλεκομένων πω σφόδρα τοῖς Ἕλλησιν, οὔτ' ἐπιχειρούντων ἑλληνικῶς ζῆν ἢ μανθάνειν τὴν ἡμετέραν διάλεκτον, πλὴν εἴ τινες σπάνιοι καὶ κατὰ τύχην ἐπεμίχθησαν καὶ κατ' ἄνδρα ὀλίγοις τῶν Ἑλλήνων τισίν· οὗτοι δὲ καθ' ὅλην ἐπλανήθησαν τὴν Ἑλλάδα μισθοῦ στρατεύοντες. ἤδη οὖν τὸ βαρβαρόφωνον ἐπ' ἐκείνων πυκνὸν ἦν ἀπὸ τῆς εἰς τὴν Ἑλλάδα αὐτῶν στρατείας· καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα ἐπεπόλασε πολὺ μᾶλλον, ἀφ' οὗ τάς τε νήσους μετὰ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ᾤκησαν, κἀκεῖθεν εἰς τὴν Ἀσίαν ἐκπεσόντες οὐδ' ἐνταῦθα χωρὶς Ἑλλήνων οἰκεῖν ἠδύναντο, ἐπιδιαβάντων τῶν Ἰώνων καὶ τῶν Δωριέων. ἀπὸ δὲ τῆς αὐτῆς αἰτίας καὶ τὸ βαρβαρίζειν λέγεται· καὶ γὰρ τοῦτο ἐπὶ τῶν κακῶς ἑλληνιζόντων εἰώθαμεν λέγειν, οὐκ ἐπὶ τῶν καριστὶ λαλούντων. οὕτως οὖν καὶ τὸ βαρβαροφωνεῖν καὶ τοὺς βαρβαροφώνους δεκτέον τοὺς κακῶς ἑλληνίζοντας· ἀπὸ δὲ τοῦ καρίζειν καὶ τὸ βαρβαρίζειν μετήνεγκαν εἰς τὰς περὶ ἑλληνισμοῦ τέχνας καὶ τὸ σολοικίζειν, εἴτ' ἀπὸ Σόλων εἴτ' ἄλλως τοῦ ὀνόματος τούτου πεπλασμένου.[/col]
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Re: Strabo, trying to explain the word barbarian.

#2

Post by Socio » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:42 pm

Zeus10 wrote:What do you think about the following conclusion of Strabo, where he pointed out that a barbarian differ from a Helene only from the harsh accent.

I don't think he's arguing that Zeus !

Read carefully:
The fact is, however, that through our long acquaintance and intercourse with the barbarians this effect was at last seen to be the result, not of a thick pronunciation or any natural defect in the vocal organs, but of the peculiarities of their several languages. And there appeared another faulty and barbarian-like pronunciation in our language, whenever any person speaking Greek did not pronounce it correctly, but pronounced the words like barbarians who are only beginning to learn Greek and are unable to speak it accurately, as is also the case with us in speaking their languages. This was particularly the case with the Carians, for, although the other peoples were not yet having very much intercourse with the Greeks nor even trying to live in Greek fashion or to learn our language--with the exception, perhaps, of rare persons who by chance, and singly, mingled with a few of the Greeks--yet the Carians roamed throughout the whole of Greece, serving on expeditions for pay. Already, therefore, the barbarous element in their Greek was strong, as a result of their expeditions in Greece; and after this it spread much more, from the time they took up their abode with the Greeks in the islands; and when they were driven thence into Asia, even here they were unable to live apart from the Greeks, I mean when the Ionians and Dorians later crossed over to Asia. The term "barbarize," also, has the same origin; for we are wont to use this too in reference to those who speak Greek badly, not to those who talk Carian. So, therefore, we must interpret the terms "speak barbarously" and "barbarously-speaking" as applying to those who speak Greek badly. And it was from the term "Carise" that the term "barbarize" was used in a different sense in works on the art of speaking Greek; and so was the term "soloecise," whether derived from Soli, or made up in some other way.
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Re: Strabo, trying to explain the word barbarian.

#3

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:14 pm

I am not sure what Strabo is trying to say, and if the translation of the word dialektos has been used to denote some kind of speech or a language as a general term. The thing is that he is not sure himself, if the word barbarian is an ethnical term used as opposed to Helenic race , or is maliciously used toward individuals or ethnic groups culturally inferior to Helenes, but if this is the case how come they 'helenes' were calling the Persians as barbarians, while the Persians were far above Helenes in any aspect?
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Re: Strabo, trying to explain the word barbarian.

#4

Post by Socio » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:56 pm

... or the Egyptians in that respect !

I think Strabo here is trying merely to determine when the terms 'barbarize' or 'barbarously speaking' are applied. He says these terms are applied when someone 'SPEAKS GREEK BADLY', his argument is linguistical only. But when he explains the origin of these terms, then the argument turns historical and ethnical.

Strabo is very clear, barbarians are not Greek. Their mother-tongue is not Greek. They are the 'other', ethnically as well as culturally.
However, the linguistical terms; 'barbarize' or 'barbarously speaking' which are in use today (Strabo's time) among the Greeks are influenced from the way they, Barbarians (non-Greeks or foreigners) speak the greek language .
Last edited by Socio on Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strabo, trying to explain the word barbarian.

#5

Post by Edison » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:34 pm

I am trying to look for a quote by Strabo where he classify the Macedonians and epriot as Barbarians can anyone help I know they where considered barbarian but I cant find the quote myself

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Re: Strabo, trying to explain the word barbarian.

#6

Post by Zeus10 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:35 pm

Edison wrote:I am trying to look for a quote by Strabo where he classify the Macedonians and epriot as Barbarians can anyone help I know they where considered barbarian but I cant find the quote myself
Strabo 7.7.1
[col]These alone, then, of all the tribes that are marked off by the Ister and by the Illyrian and Thracian mountains, deserve to be mentioned, occupying as they do the whole of the Adriatic seaboard beginning at the recess, and also the sea-board that is called “the left parts of the Pontus,” and extends from the Ister River as far as Byzantium. But there remain to be described the southerly parts of the aforesaid1 mountainous country and next thereafter the districts that are situated below them, among which are both Greece and the adjacent barbarian country as far as the mountains. Now Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians, if one reasons from the traditions themselves: Pelops2 brought over peoples3 from Phrygia to the Peloponnesus that received its name from him; and Danaüs4 from Egypt; whereas the Dryopes, the Caucones, the Pelasgi, the Leleges, and other such peoples, apportioned among themselves the parts that are inside the isthmus—and also the parts outside, for Attica was once held by the Thracians who came with Eumolpus,5 Daulis in Phocis by Tereus,6 Cadmeia7 by the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and Boeotia itself by the Aones and Temmices and Hyantes. According to Pindar, ““there was a time when the Boeotian tribe was called “Syes.”
” Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names—Cecrops, Godrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians—Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes—Epeirotic tribes.|τὰ μὲν οὖν ἀφοριζόμενα ἔθνη τῷ τε Ἴστρῳ καὶ τοῖς Ἰλλυρικοῖς ὄρεσι καὶ Θρᾳκίοις ταῦτ᾽ ἔστιν ὧν ἄξιον μνησθῆναι, κατέχοντα τὴν Ἀδριατικὴν παραλίαν πᾶσαν ἀπὸ τοῦ μυχοῦ ἀρξάμενα, καὶ τὴν τὰ ἀριστερὰ τοῦ Πόντου λεγομένην ἀπὸ Ἴστρου ποταμοῦ μέχρι Βυζαντίου. λοιπὰ δέ ἐστι τὰ νότια μέρη τῆς λεχθείσης ὀρεινῆς καὶ ἑξῆς τὰ ὑποπίπτοντα χωρία, ἐν οἷς ἐστιν ἥ τε Ἑλλὰς καὶ ἡ προσεχὴς βάρβαρος μέχρι τῶν ὀρῶν. Ἑκαταῖος μὲν οὖν ὁ Μιλήσιος περὶ τῆς Πελοποννήσου φησὶν διότι πρὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ᾤκησαν αὐτὴν βάρβαροι. σχεδὸν δέ τι καὶ ἡ σύμπασα Ἑλλὰς κατοικία βαρβάρων ὑπῆρξε τὸ παλαιόν, ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν λογιζομένοις τῶν μνημονευομένων, Πέλοπος μὲν ἐκ τῆς Φρυγίας ἐπαγαγομένου λαοὺς εἰς τὴν ἀπ᾽ αὐτοῦ κληθεῖσαν Πελοπόννησον, Δαναοῦ δὲ ἐξ Αἰγύπτου, Δρυόπων τε καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πελασγῶν καὶ Λελέγων καὶ ἄλλων τοιούτων κατανειμαμένων τὰ ἐντὸς Ἰσθμοῦ καὶ τὰ ἐκτὸς δέ: τὴν μὲν γὰρ Ἀττικὴν οἱ μετὰ Εὐμόλπου Θρᾷκες ἔσχον, τῆς δὲ Φωκίδος τὴν Δαυλίδα Τηρεύς, τὴν δὲ Καδμείαν οἱ μετὰ Κάδμου Φοίνικες, αὐτὴν δὲ τὴν Βοιωτίαν Ἄονες καὶ Τέμμικες καὶ Ὕαντες:1 καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ὀνομάτων δὲ ἐνίων τὸ βάρβαρον ἐμφαίνεται, Κέκροψ καὶ Κόδρος καὶ Ἄικλος καὶ Κόθος καὶ Δρύμας καὶ Κρίνακος. οἱ δὲ Θρᾷκες καὶ Ἰλλυριοὶ καὶ Ἠπειρῶται καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἐν πλευραῖς εἰσιν: ἔτι μέντοι μᾶλλον πρότερον ἢ νῦν, ὅπου γε καὶ τῆς ἐν τῷ παρόντι Ἑλλάδος ἀναντιλέκτως οὔσης τὴν πολλὴν οἱ βάρβαροι ἔχουσι, Μακεδονίαν μὲν Θρᾷκες καί τινα μέρη τῆς Θετταλίας, Ἀκαρνανίας δὲ καὶ Αἰτωλίας τὰ ἄνω Θεσπρωτοὶ καὶ Κασσωπαῖοι καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ Μολοττοὶ καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες, Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη.[/col]
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Re: Strabo, trying to explain the word barbarian.

#7

Post by Edison » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:22 pm

ahaa thanks. People from Thessaly was partly considered barbarian I guess.

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Re: Strabo, trying to explain the word barbarian.

#8

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:03 pm

Edison wrote:ahaa thanks. People from Thessaly was partly considered barbarian I guess.
Po, Strabo flet per te shkuaren:
  at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians—Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians,  
Por ne duhet te kuptojme mire, qe vetem 'barbarians' mund te jete etiketim etnik, kurse 'hellenes' sipas te gjitha gjasave eshte etikete religjioze.Pra:

hellenes-----------genos-----------------komb religjioz
barbarians---------ethnos-----------------komb etnik

Cfare ishte ne qender te religjionit te ketyre helleneve? Me sa duket DIELLI:

Image

pastaj, me vone morri karrakter tjeter, duke kaluar nga e dukshmja dhe natyrorja, ne te padukshmen dhe mistiken.
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Re: Strabo, trying to explain the word barbarian.

#9

Post by Edison » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:22 pm

ahaa po po kuptoj shum flm... nashta kam gabim po Macedonia vjetur (Emathia) a kan than naj her qe illirit dhe macedons ishen njeten popull nga pliny the elder, pluto, Strabo? prap si prap na mendojm qe jan ilir se nk mundet jet Grek (Macedonia sot nk eshte Macedonia vjetur) (me fal po shqip se di mire jan rrit ne lodoner :D kam harro shum.

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