"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

THE PELASGIAN CASE

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Arta
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THE PELASGIAN CASE

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Post by Arta » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:13 am

From Greek mythology and legends: Uranus (sky) and Gea (earth) had as sons the Titans, some of them were Cronus (time) and Rhea/Cybeles; brother and daughter had Zeus as son. Zeus' boyhood was in Crete. Zeus had as son Minos [Minoans], the future foreign Cretan king. Atlas (grandson of Uranus and Gea) had a daughter named Taygete; she and Zeus had Lacedaemon as son, and this had Danae as grand-niece. Zeus and Danae had Perseus as son, the founder of Mycenas. Ocean (sea) son was Inachus (the first man in Argolis and who brought there humankind, the inventer of fire), he had as niece Niobe. Zeus and Niobe had as son Pelasgus [Pelasgians], this one had Lycaon as son, Lycaon had Macednus [Macedonians], Oenotrus [the Oenotrians were Epirotes] and Nyctimus as sons, and the latter had Hellen [Greeks] and Idomeneus [Cretans] as grandsons. Hellen's son was Aeolus [Aeolians], this Aeolus had two sons: Athamas [Epirotes] and Sisiphus, the last married with Merope, daughter of Atlas, and they had Bellophoron as grandson (the Greek hero that migrated to Lycia, slained Lycians, and conquered the Solymi).

IDEA: If we see Zeus as a mythic hero who spook an indoeuropean language, and his wives or lovers as the representants of the native populations, such myths would record ancient conquers, languages, and ethnic relations. Otherwise it is known that the classics liked much to fabulate and embellish... (much more even the "dark" espisodes of their own heroes as were plunderings, rapes, impity, etc.).

Pausanias, Description of Greece book 8:
The Arcadians say that Pelasgus was the first inhabitant of this land [Peloponnesus].

Herodotus, The Histories: "These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans [Phoenicians], it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian." (the localities mentioned in the story of the migration into the Peloponnese are all in northern Greece).

IDEA: That would confirm an European and Indoeuropean origin of the original Phoenicians. It could be that the Pelasgians represented also Greek nations before -1200 ?

What language the Pelasgians spoke I cannot say definitely. But if one may judge by those that still remain of the Pelasgians who live
above the Tyrrheni in the city of Creston--who were once neighbors of the people now called Dorians, and at that time inhabited the
country which now is called Thessalian-- and of the Pelasgians who inhabited Placia and Scylace on the Hellespont, who came to live
among the Athenians, and by other towns too which were once Pelasgian and afterwards took a different name: if, as I said, one may
judge by these, the Pelasgians spoke a language which was not Greek. If, then, all the Pelasgian stock spoke so, then the Attic nation,
being of Pelasgian blood, must have changed its language too at the time when it became part of the Hellenes. For the people of Creston and Placia have a language of their own in common, which is not the language of their neighbors; and it is plain that they still preserve the manner of speech which they brought with them in their migration into the places where they live.

IDEA: Again a possible reference that Attic Greek was Pelasgian, and then that the Pelasgian language might have been identified with the Greek of Linear B, a dialectal Greek rather primitive.

Even a "deciphered" Linear B text is often largely or completely unintelligible because the Mycenaean Greek words have no cognates
in later Greek. The decipherers argue that such Mycenaean words dropped out of the Greek language at some point between -1200
and -650. In a number of instances where such later Greek cognates do exist, the Mycenaean Greek predecessor clearly means something rather different, an indication, or so the skeptics argue, that the language of Linear B is being forced to become Greek.

IDEA: That point that for a classic Greek the Linear B Greek would be almost unintelligible, so considering these "Greeks" as barbars: no-Greeks.

Strabo: "As for the Pelsagi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly. Again, Ephorus says that he is of the opinion that, since they were originally Arcadians, they chose a military life, and that, in converting many peoples to the same mode of life, they imparted their name to all, and thus acquired great glory, not only among the Greeks, but also among all other people whithersoever they had chanced to come [then were not considerated to be Greeks]. For example, they prove to have been colonisers of Crete, as

Homer says; at any rate, Odysseus says to Penelope: 'But one tongue with others is mixed; there dwell
Achaeans, there Cretans of the old stock, proud of heart, there Cydonians, and Dorians too, of waving plumes, and goodly Pelasgians.' And Thessaly is called 'the Pelasgian Argos' (I mean that part of it which lies between the outlets of the Peneius River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus), on account of the fact that the Pelasgi extended their rule over these regions. Further, the Dodonaean Zeus is by the poet himself named 'Pelasgian': 'O Lord Zeus, Dodonaean, Pelasgian.' And many have called also the tribes of Epirus 'Pelasgian' because in their opinion the Pelasgi extended their rule even as far as that. And, further, because many of the heroes were called 'Pelasgi' by name, the people of later times have, from those heroes, applied the name to many of the tribes; for example, they have called the island of Lesbos 'Pelasgia' and Homer has called 'Pelasgi' the people that were neighbours to those Cilicians [here a clear indication of ethnic kindship among Lycians and Cilicians which spook Anatolian IE languages] who lived in the Troad: 'And Hippothous led the tribes of spear-fighting Pelasgi, those Pelasgi who inhabited deep-soiled Larissa.' But Ephorus' authority for the statement that this race originated in Arcadia was Hesiod; for Hesiod says: 'And sons were born of god-like Lycaon, who, on a time, was begotten by Pelasgus.' Again, Aeschylus, in his Suppliants, or else his Danaan Women, says that the race of the Pelasgi originated in that Argos which is round about Mycenae. And the Peloponnesus too, according to Ephorus, was called 'Pelasgia'. And Euripides too, in his Archelaus, says: 'Danaus, the father of fifty daughters, on coming into Argos, took up his abode in the city of Inachus, and throughout Greece he laid down a law that all people hitherto named Pelasgians were to be called Danaans'. And again, Anticleides says that they were the
first to settle the regions round about Lemnos and Imbros, and indeed that some of these sailed away to Italy with Tyrrhenus the son of Atys. And the compilers of the histories of The Land of Atthis give accounts of the Pelasgi, believing that the Pelasgi were in fact
at Athens too, although the Pelasgi were by the Attic people called 'Pelargi', the compilers add, because they were wanderers and, like
birds, resorted to those places whither chance led them."

IDEA: more tracks as to consider the Pelasgians as the bearers of the Lineal B Greek language, that Pelasgus was the father of Lycaon (from him the Greek Lycaones), and that the Pelasgians were in fact Archadians, the original Greek settlers in the Peloponnesus, which conserved much of their original Greek dialect; or the fact that the semi-Greek semi-Bartbarian Epirotes were refered to be Pelasgians.

The Ionians furnished a hundred ships, and were equipped like Hellenes. Now the Ionians, so long time as they dwelt in the Peloponnese, in the land which is now called Achaia, and before the time when Danaos and Xuthos came to the Peloponnese, were called, as the Hellenes report, Pelasgians of the Coast-land, and then Ionians after Ion the son of Xuthos. The islanders furnished seventeen ships, and were armed like Hellenes, this also being a Pelasgian race, though afterwards it came to be called Ionian by the same rule as the Ionians of the twelve cities, who came from Athens. The Aiolians supplied sixty ships; and these were equipped like Hellenes and used to be called Pelasgians in the old time, as the Hellenes report. (Herodotus).

IDEA: It seems quite clear, the unique populations that dwelt in Greece and in the coast of Western Turkey and adjacent islands were the Greek-related nation of the Achaeans, since the Hellenes (Dorians) occupied the lands of these
and no others.

As for the Hellenic race, it has used ever the same language, as I clearly perceive, since it first took its rise; but since the time when
it parted off feeble at first from the Pelasgian race [so was part of the Pelasgian stock to him], setting forth from a small beginning it has increased to that great number of races which we see, and chiefly because many Barbarian races have been added to it besides.
Moreover it is true, as I think, of the Pelasgian race also [that they became Doric-speakers], that so far as it remained Barbarian
[not integrated in the Hellenic nation] it never made any great increase. (Herodotus).

IDEA: That is logic since the Pelasgians, being or not of a Greek phylia, became Hellenic excepting some exceptional cases.

The Sinti, a Thracian tribe, inhabited the island Lemnos; and from this fact Homer calls them Sinties; also the island was first settled by
the Thracians who were called Sinties according to Strabo.

Diodorus Siculus, Library: The Arcadians alone of the Greeks had never acknowledged Philip's leadership nor did they now recognize
that of Alexander. (3.48)

Herodotus, The Histories: But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians, few in number, they have grown from a small beginning to comprise a multitude of nations, chiefly because the Pelasgians and many other foreign peoples united themselves with them.

IDEA: Such account would confirm the filiation between Pelasgian and Greek, and also would point to a Epiro-Illyrian connection.

The acropolis of the Argives is said to have been founded by Danaüs, who is reputed to have surpassed so much those who reigned in this region before him that, according to Euripides "throughout Greece he laid down a law that all people hitherto named Pelasgians
should be called Danaans." (Strabo). And, thirdly, Greece as a whole; at any rate, he [Homer] calls all Greeks
Argives, just as he calls them Danaans and Achaeans. (Strabo). That the Pelasgians were a great tribe is said also to be the testimony of history in general: Menecrates of Elaea, at any rate, in his work On the Founding of Cities, says that the whole of what is now the Ionian coast, beginning at Mycale, as also the neighboring islands, were in earlier times inhabited by Pelasgians. (Strabo). But the Pelasgian race, ever wandering and quick to migrate, greatly increased and then rapidly disappeared, particularly at the time
of the migration of the Aeolians and Ionians to Asia [then by -1200].(Strabo).

IDEA: Or was swallowed by the constant flow of the akin Dorics in Greece...because such areas were occupied
by Mycenic Achaeans, and it is pointed that the Pelasgian was a language akin to Greek (Macedonio-Epirot).

The Lydians, on the other hand, are expressly stated to have had nothing in common with the Pelasgians (Dion. i. 30), and all we know
of them points to more eastern countries as their original home.

PELASGIANS were not ANATOLIAN IE

Herodotus: of the Pelasgians who inhabited Placia and Scylace on the Hellespont [...].

IDEA: As seen in the section for Italy, almost all Italy received legendary Trojans: Rome, Sicily, Liguria, Padania, Crotone... that leads to think that such Trojans were in fact Pelasgians because almost there is an overlaping Trojan - Pelasgian factor in Italy: Agelly, Elymi, Siculi, Oenotri, etc.

In Samothrake Island, Herodotus mentions Pelasgians inhabiting there, which were the Tyrsenoi.

Herodotus describes actual Pelasgians surviving and mutually intelligible at Placie and Scylace on the Asiatic shore of the Hellespont,
and near Creston on the Strymon [N. Greece]; in the latter area they had Tyrrhenian neighbors. In Lemnos and Imbros he describes a
Pelasgian population who were only conquered by Athens shortly before -500 BC.

The stele found in Lemnos is written in an alphabet similar to taht of the Etruscans; moreover the endings correspond to those of Etruscan and Raethian, along with some recognized lexic: avs - avil - year, opuien - puia - to marry/wife...

IDEA: The adscription that the Pelasgians were the same people that the Tyrrhenians could have been based in the assumption that the isolated languages spoken in Lemnos and the Troad were the ancient Pelasgian, but if Lydian was not spoken in Strabo's time, and Leleges were in the Aegean Sea and in the Troad, it is not good to suppose that in fact they were dealing
with and ancient Anatolian Indoeuropean language ?

The stories about Pelasgians sailing to Crete may well be fantasy (though it is historically quite possible that Pelasgians fled from
Greece before the Greeks).

And of the natives of the various other towns which are really Pelasgian, though they have lost the name,-if one must pronounce judging by these, the Pelasgians used to speak a Barbarian language. If therefore all the Pelasgian race was such as these, then the Attic race, being Pelasgian, at the same time when it changed and became Hellenic, unlearnt also its language. (Herodotus).

Pelasgian language was not understood by Achaeans. Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic city of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language... Even now the citizens of Creston and Plakia speak another language, different from their neighbours'... But what about Hellenic tribes, to my mind, they always spoke one language." (I, 57-58.) That means Herodot could not understand Pelasgian and considered Pelasgian to be barbarian language, together with Lydian, Phoenician or Thracian.

INFO: Herodotus himslef proclaimed that Achaeans might have changed their ancient language since they
spoke Dorian / Hellenic by his time.

IDEA: Moreover Herodotus could have confussed a not recognizable language as Pelasgian even being it not
related to it: he mentions two cities of the Troad, but more easy would be to mention Epirotes per example.

The daughters of Danaos were they who brought this rite out of Egypt and taught it to the women of the Pelasgians; then afterwards when all the inhabitants of Peloponnese were driven out by the Dorians, the rite was lost, and only those who were left behind of the Peloponnesians and not driven out, that is to say the Arcadians, preserved it. (Herodot).

IDEA: Since Arcadians were clearly a Pelasgian tribe, and since they spoke Greek, what would be the situation of an Arcadian hearing Pelasgian ?

PELASGIAN EVOLVES TO GREEK, MACEDONIAN AND EPIROT

À le Ve siècle, Thucydide, décrivant les opérations militaires durant la guerre du Péloponnèse, classe comme barbares toutes les populations de l’Épire, caractérisées par leur langue presque
incompréhensible

Strabon (VII 7, 4), contemporain d'Auguste, considere que, pour le voyageur qui va dpidamne-Dyrrachion ou d'Apollonia vers Ohrid, le long de la via Egnatia, a main gauche sont des peuples illyriens, main droite des peuples Epirotes; il déplace ainsi très sensiblement la frontière entre monde civilise et monde barbare, mais on remarque qu’il classe les Épirotes à part des Grecs
proprement dits.

IDEA: so for the Greeks the Epirotian were related to Greek but was not pure
Greek.

Then after this he [Croesus, a Lydian king] gave thought to inquire which people of the Hellenes he should esteem the most powerful
and gain over to himself as friends. And inquiring he found that the Lacedemonians and the Athenians had the pre-eminence, the first
of the Dorian and the others of the Ionian race. For these were the most eminent races in ancient time, the second being a Pelasgian and the first a Hellenic race: and the one never migrated from its place in any direction, while the other was very exceedingly given to wanderings; for in the reign of Deucalion this race dwelt in Pthiotis, and in the time of Doros the son of Hellen in the land lying below Ossa and Olympos, which is called Histiaiotis; and when it was driven from Histiaiotis by the sons of Cadmos, it dwelt in Pindos and was called Makednian; and thence it moved afterwards to Dryopis, and from Dryopis it came finally to Peloponnesus, and began to be called Dorian. (Herodotus).

IDEA: The reference to Cadmos refers such happenings to be before the Trojan War (-1200), and link Hellenics
with Macedonians (Makednians).

The Macedonians, as they are called by all the ancient poets, and in the fragments of epic poetry, owed their name, as it was said, to an eponymous ancestor; according to some, this was Macednus, son of Lycaon, from whom the Arcadians were descended (Apollod. iii. 8. § 1), or Macedon, grandson of Aeolus [son of Hellen and forerunner of the Aeolians], according to Hesiod and Hellanicus. These, as well as the otherwise unsupported statement of Herodotus of the original identity of the Doric and Macednian (Macedonian) peoples, are merely various attempts to form a genealogical connection between this semi-barbarous people and the rest of the Hellenic race. [Hellen had Dorus as son, the forerunner of the Dorians].

The Macedonian is an Indoeuropean language that is near the Greek branch, but it is not a Greek dialect; in fact the proto-Macedonian
would be a siter language of proto-Greek, that would have evolved from a common Proto-Greco-Macedonian (that would have been
spoken in the first part of the second millennia BC). The IE aspired oclusives /*bh, *dh, *gh, .../ become /b, d, g/ which is a solution not carried with Greek, where it evolves to /ph, th, kh/. Some examples are: mac. Bilippos = gr. Philippos (Philip); mac. Berenika = gr. Pherenike: (Berenice); mac. danos 'dead' = gr. thanatos; mac. gabala 'head' = gr. kephale; mac. niba 'snow' = gr. niphe: [< IE *(s)nigwh-].

IDEA: in the other side the Armenian and Phrygian first branches with Greek; and the homeland of the Phrygians was in actual Macedonia.

IDEA: and curiously the "Brygians" converted to "Phrygians" in Anatolia...

The original region of the ancient Macedonians was the basin of the river Haliakmon. The oldest toponyms here are very similar
to the Greek ones. Numerous isoglosses connect the Macedonian language with different Greek dialects. This fact attests the genetic
identity of Macedonian and Greek. In the present writers opinion, ancient Macedonian is very closely related to Greek, and Macedonian
and Greek are descended from a common Greek-Macedonian idiom that was spoken till about the second half of the third millennium BC.
(Vladimir Georgiev).

Of all discovered Macedonian words, some do not have cognates in Greek but do have them in other Indo-European languages such
as Thracian, Slavic, and Italic.

IDEA: That could be produced by a blend of a Pelasgian language (Greek-like) with a Thracian/Illyrian/Italic invasor language (that would have dated by -1200, diverging Macedonian Pelasgian more from the Greek "brother" language).

The Greeks gradually occupied the Aegean territory from the end of the third or the beginning of the second millenium BC. But it is still
not clear where the dwelt before this invasion, or, in other words, where the proto-Greek region lay. Study of toponyms shows clearly that this region lay approximately in north-western Greece. The proofs are as follows:

1. Here the typical pre-Greek toponyms are lacking.

2. Almost all toponyms, especially the most important ones from this regionare of Greek origin and they often show archaic Greek features (Thesprotia, Argos, Gonos, Tekmon, Aleron, Pinios, Pindhos, etc.)

3. The two common Greek denomonations Elines and Grekoi originate from Epirus

4. The most charcteristic toponym in here is -argos- which occurs in this region four times: it means "the white town" and is of Greek origin.

[...] some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, [refered to Epirus] as far as Corcyra, [Corfu] at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar [to those of Macedonia], although, they add, some speak both languages [Epirot and Macedonian, or Macedonian and Greek ?]. (Strabo).

What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia. And it took its present name from Macedon, one of its early chieftains. And there was also a city Emathia close to the sea. Now a part of this country was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, but most of it by the Bottiaei and the Thracians. (Strabo).

IDEA: By both accounts, it seems clear that the Macedonian language was in fact Epirot.

Greeks always considered Macedonians to be semi-barbarians.

IDEA: so not too distant from Greek.

IDEA: Maybe some account on the invasion of Egypt by the Sea Peoples can be excerpt from the Greek
myths. Inachus had Io as daughter, Zeus tried to seduce her, but he went/fleed to Egypt were she married Telegonus, the king of Egypt; her gransdon, Busiris, was slain by Herakles/Hercules (son of Zeus, conquerer and wanderer).

IDEA: Before the Dorians, the Thracians occupied Greece ? (by -1200).

Urnfield (-1300), with cremation and centered in the High Danube Bassin, spread to Poland as Lausitz culture, related to Illyrians and
Venets. Expanded southwards to Greece and Asia Minor.

IDEA: Such invasions pushed native tribes to invade the territories of their
neighbours.

By -1150 Towns burned and come here Dorians, Beocians, Thessalians, etc that incinerated their dead. Their militar superiority was due
that they mounted horses and used spears with iron, where Mycenians combated with chariots, axes and swords.

Longtemps on a cru que les Doriens avaient été les responsables de la destruction des citadelles myceniennes. Forts de leurs armes de fer, ces Doriens auraient balaye le vieil univers achen à la fin du II millonaire, introduisant entre autre en Grèce de nouvelles
coutumes funeraires comme celle de l'incineration. Aujourd'hui on se rend compte que l'introduction du fer et de ces nouvelles coutumes funeraires est bien posterieure -1200.

[...] for when the poet [Homerus] said "and all his companions Idomeneus [brother of Hellen] brought to Crete, all who escaped from the [Trojan] war, and the sea robbed him of none" (Strabo).

IDEA: Legendary Greek colonization of Crete around -1200.

Figurine of a knight mounting a horse in Greece dated of -950.

Homer "Iliad" composed by -700, first classical Greek book: the Iliad of Homer.

CRETE - THE MYSTERY OF LINEAR A AND ITS LANGUAGE


Linear A has been adduced to be dialectal ancient Greek, Hurrian related, or to be Luwian.

Linear A language attested in incriptions till -500; and Homer said that there were 5 nations in the Crete: Pelasgians, Eteo-Cretans
(the most old Cretans), Kidonians/Sidonians (Phoenicians), Acheans (Greeks of Linear B), and Dorians (modern Greeks). Diodorus of Sicily stated that before Phoenicians, Greeks, and Mycenian Greeks [Acheans] there was an older population in the island.

IDEA: then before IE inmigrations there were two languages; as the date of the first occupation coincides with that of first Neolithic occupation in the area, and as Neolithics came from Anatolia, the Eteo-Cretan might be a Caucasian language related to Hurrian and Hatti; then Pelasgian might be a parent-language that was carried in Crete by the same Caucasian Neolithic
socities present in Anatolia that acquired new technolgies. Or maybe the volcanic explosion of Thera, that was a local cataclism,
depopulated the inmediate areas, leaving a vacuum that was filled with a new wave of Anatolians, or maybe the Pelasgians were Anatolians coming from the continent fleeding from the Hittites.

IDEA: The Etocretans were not Pelasgians: so there must have been a second migration there in protohistoric times.


IDEA:
So there are only two possibilities to assign Linear A: It represented the Minoic/Eteocretan language, or it represented Pelasgian (but as stated next, the Pelasgian might have been an old or archaic Greek dialect, which was spoken by the Achaeans or Mynoics, and which was written in Linear B).

The language present in Linear A was sometimes written in the Greek alphabet around -600 in Praisios (Crete). Unfortunately there
is no word separation. Here is an example of such inscriptions:

onadesiemetepimitspha
dphnalaraphraisoiinai
retsnmtorsardophsano
satoisstephesiamun
animestepalungutat


IDEA: Thera volcan explodes around -1600; by -1570 starts in Crete the New Palaces epoch, with a new elite that had bull games and abandoned the previous pictographic script and creates the Linear A... By -1450 the Achaeans appear in the island, with plunderings and the abandonment of the palaces. Could have been the strangers those that used Linear A ?

IDEA: Thera's explosion was so terrible that even Egypt seems was affected, in fact a third of the island simply dissappeared under the sea or even flew away; much more affected than Egypt was the immediate area, counting also Crete and its culture: the giant tsunamis would have left this Thalassocracy without ships and, even worse, without enough people to held the empire. So it could be thought that simple traders and/or fishers from Anatolia or from Greece were aware of such fact, allowing that the possibility to neighbour nations to invade, to plunder and to colonize the affected islands. Such explosion could have allowed the
arrival of Anatolian peoples or elites that would reshape the Minoan culture, but without enough time as to change the main culture since after some decades the Mycenians conquerewd the island.

The earliest historical references to the Lycians date back to the Late Bronze Age (-1500 to -1200) in numerous Egyptian, Hittite and
Ugaritic texts. It is known from these that the Lycians (called ‘Lukka’ in these sources) were involved in acts of piracy against Cyprus around -1400, and that they fought against Egypt in the ranks of the Hittites during the battle of Kadesh in -1295.

In Greek legend the Lycians first appear as allies of Troy in the Trojan Wars. Homer reports: "From distant Lycia and the whirling
Xanthos came the Lycians led by Sarpedon [which was born in Crete] and heroic Glaucus".

IDEA: So that they have been in stablished in classic Lycia before -1200.

IDEA: So just some 200 km from Crete there was a powerful piratical
nation...

In a few centuries after their arrival to Asia Minor, the Hittites acquired vocabulary, which since then was just 20% Indo-European.
All religious terms, personal names and place names, even many phonetic and morphological peculiarities of Hittite became completely
non-Indo-European.

IDEA: If an Anatolian IE language would be mixed in Crete with the non-Indoeuropean native language, which percent would result ? Similar to that of Linear A ?

IDEA: Another possible evidence to link Linear A with some Anatolian language, is that the percussor of the script (the Cretean jerogliphics) are linked to the Hittite jerogliphic script; both scripts used the bustrophedon system, used discs to write, and were pictographic also. But which relation had ? as brother scripts or as father-son scripts ? What is sure is that the Cretan jerogliphics and the Hittite were inspired both in the Tartaria script, which was developed by the Neolithic Vinca Culture or by the Eneolithic IE Cotofeni Culture...

IDEA: Carians/Leleges, Palestines, Phoenicians (Cadmians) and Lycians are said to come from Crete...

Zeus was king in Crete, and he gave his wife (Europe) and his son (Minos) at king Asterion, son of the king of the Pelasgians (Tectamus).

INFO: Europe was the sister of Kilix, the founder of the Cilicians.

IDEA: This mith (or religious legend) would point that the original inhabitants of Crete (the Eteocretans) would have mixed, or accepted, the Pelasgians: firstly the noblemen.

According to post-Homeric legend, Sarpedon was the son of Zeus and Europa, and after a quarrel with his brother Minos, fled to Lycia
where he became king and was said to have lived for three generations. [and was the founder of the Lycian nation...].

In -1450 Cyprus was partly populated by aboriginal nations, who are believed to belong to the same ethnic groups as Cretans
("Eteo-Cretans and Eteo-Cypriots" in classical sources).

Once conquered by Mycenics the autochton population of Cyprus was made slave, which were named as in Crete Mnoitoi. This word
probably derives from the name of Minos, a legendary king of Crete.

IDEA: and also would link both islands ethnicaly.

IDEA: It is paramount to discover if Linear A is linked to Hurrite/Hatti to understand all the Neolithic protohistory.


................................................................................................

part 2

PAPHLAGONIANS were in Sinop


In the Illiad, Homer refers to the Paphlagonians as one of the most ancient nations of Asia Minor, derived from the Eneti or Heneti. This
reference has prompted speculations that the Paphlagonians are a stray branch of the Veneti, who migrated from the Balkans to settle at the head of the Adriatic. Others suggest that the Paphlagonians are kin to the Macedonians tracing common roots to the Phrygians.

And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven
out to the Adriatic Sea [that would have occured in the -VII Century]. But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the
Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country, as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy. It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. (Strabo).

The Paphlagonian princes pretended to be descendants of Pylaemnenes, the leader of the Paphlagonian Heneti in the Trojan War, after
whom they also called themselves Pylaemenes. (Pliny).

PAPHLAGONIANS = ENETI

The earliest writer who has left any account of the peoples inhabiting the Adriatic coast is Scylax; according to whom the Illyrians,
properly so called (for the Liburnians and Istrians beyond them are excluded), occupy the sea-coast from Liburnia to the Chaonians of
Epirus. The Bulini were the northernmost of these tribes, and the Amantini the southernmost. Herodotus (i. 196) includes under the name, the Heneti or Veneti, who lived at the head of the gulf; in another passage (iv. 49) he places the Illyrians on the tributary streams of the Morava river [Bosnia].

VENETI = HENETI = ILLYRIANS (dialectal ? as between Celtic Belgae and Celtic
Galli)


Maeandrius says that the Eneti first set forth from the country of the White Syrians and allied themselves with the Trojans, and that they sailed away from Troy with the Thracians and took up their abode round the recess of the Adrias, but that the Eneti who did not have a part in the expedition had become Cappadocians. The following might seem to agree with this account, I mean the fact that the whole of that part of Cappadocia near the Halys River which extends along Paphlagonia uses two languages which abound in Paphlagonian names, as "Bagas," "Biasas," "Aeniates," "Rhatotes," "Zardoces," "Tibius," "Gasys," "Oligasys," and "Manes," for these names are prevalent in Bamonitis, Pimolitis, Gazelonitis, Gazacene and most of the other districts. (Strabo).

IDEA: If the Paphlagonians/Eneti carried a colonization of the Adriatic along Illyrians - Thracians, and Venet seems to be linked to Illyrian, the possible explanations could be that the Eneti gave the name to the settlers but no their language,
or that Eneti and Thracians had the same language in principle. Another explanation would be that a branch of the Thracians (Eneti) expanded northwards to Venice, and southwards to Paphlagonia.

There are several accounts of the Cauconians; for it is said that, like the Pelasgians, they were an Arcadian tribe, and, again like the
Pelasgians, that they were a wandering tribe. At any rate, the poet tells us that they came to Troy as allies of the Trojans. But he does not say whence they come, though they seem to have come from Paphlagonia; for in Paphlagonia there is a people called Cauconiatae whose territory borders on that of the Mariandyni, who are themselves Paphlagonians. (Strabo).

The Caucanes or Cauconians were east of Bytinia and south of the Mariandyni.


As for the Cauconians, who, according to report, took up their abode on the seacoast next to the Mariandyni and extended as far as the Parthenius River, with Tieium as their city, some say that they were Scythians, others that they were a certain people of the Macedonians, and others that they were a certain people of the Pelasgians. (Strabo).

CAUCONES = PAPHLAGONIANS (in language)

Another place where the Cauconians inhabited was the Peloponesus.

CAUCONES = PELASGIANS ?


PONTIC AREA (MAINLY CAUCASIANS)

The Kashka are believed to be identical to the Qulha [Colchians] of eighth century Urartian sources.

COLCHIANS = KASKANS ?

The Kashka or Kaska were warring tribes that menaced the Hittite Kingdom from their Pontic bases. The language of the Kaskas is unkown.

These same people [the Chalybes] are now named Sapaei; for all these have their abode round Abdera [city of Thracia] and the islands
round Lemnos. [including Samothrake] (Strabo).

In fact the Sapaei was a Thracian tribe.

CHALYBES = THRACIANS ?

IDEA: There was a relation between Illyrians, Thracians and Mossynoi ? All them used tatoos.

Procopius' Wars V, III, 7-13: "Some early writers, have stated that the territory of the Trapezuntines is adjoined either by the Sanoi who at the present day are called Tzanoi, or by the Kolchoi, calling another people Lazoi, [...] For in the first place the Tzanoi live at a very great distance from the coast as neighbours of the Armenians in the interior [of the Pontus region], [...] all these [mountains] prevent the Tzanoi from being on the sea. In the second place, it is impossible that the Lazoi should not be the Kolchoi, because they inhabit the banks of the Phasis river [Rioni river in West Georgia]; and the Kolchoi have changed their name at the present time to the Lazoia".


..........................................................................................

PART 3

MOSCH = PHRYGIANS = ARMENIANS ?


IDEA: Also would be interpreted that the Mosch - Cappadocians had as king Midas, a Phrygian king that conquered Cappadocia. (In a similar way as that a French historian would write that the Tamils had as queen Elisabeth II: that does not means that the Tamils are Englishmen).

Herodotus: "From the Hellespontians who dwell on the right as one sails in and the Phrygians and the Thracians who dwell in Asia and the Paphlagonians and Mariandynoi and Syrians [Leucosyrians]"

IDEA: By some texts it seems as if Phrygians were not Thracians; that could have its origins in that Phrygian evolved or mixed much after its expansion, or that those Thracians refered represent a tribal Thracian subgroup (as Greek was an Hellenic or "Greek" tribe).

The Amphilochians are Epeirotes; and so are the peoples who are situated above them and border on the Illyrian mountains, inhabiting a
rugged country--I mean the Molossi, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei, the Orestae, and also the Paroraei and the Atintanes, some of them being nearer to the Macedonians and others to the Ionian Gulf. [...] But the Illyrian tribes which are near the southern part of the mountainous country and those which are above the Ionian Gulf are intermingled with these peoples; for above Epidamnus and Apollonia as far as the Ceraunian Mountains dwell the Bylliones, the Taulantii, the Parthini, and the Brygi [the forerunners of the Phrygians]. (Strabo).

IDEA: Strabo points there that the forerunners of the Phrygians spoke originally Epiro-Macedonian or Illyrian.

Strabo: Some say that the Paeonians [Pannonians, Illyrian tribe] are colonizers that came from Phrygia [in this case a geographic term, not ethnic, for the Troad], where others say that these [the Paeonians] gave rise to the Phrygians.

IDEA: in fact Phrygians and Paeonians have in common that they dwelt before in the Strymon country, and moreover, the Troad was known as Phrygia, so pointing out that it was also occupied by them (before or after the Thracian Mysians).

Scymnus Chius and Strabo locate the Brygi far to the west on the borders of Epirus and Illyria (in actual Albania).

IDEA: So that such Brygians could have spoken an Epiro-Macedonian language or an Illyrian language...

PAEONIANS = PANNONIANS [Illyrian tribe] = BRYGIANS and PHRYGIANS ?

IDEA: In case that the Phrygians would have been of Illyrian origin, after blended with Thracian and Greek elements, that would confirm that they wouild have been an Urnfield's spear point to the Balkans; also that would confirm the
ethnic identification with the Illyrians with the Urnfield peoples.

The Phrygian kingdom was overthrown by the Cimmerians in -676.

Proto-Armenians did not enter Urartian areas until the Urartian state was collapsing after -635; and Phrygians in their side were beaten by Cimmerian and Scythian plunderings...

In the 7th century BC Armenians became quite numerous and spread over the western Anatolia and lands along the Upper Euphrates. They assimilated Hurrians and Urartians. As well as the religion of Armenians, their language borrowed a lot from Urartian
and Hurrian.

IDEA: Mysians in Dobrudja expel Thracian Bythinians from north Macedonia, Thracians [Mysians or Bythinians] expel Brigians/Phrygians from central Macedonia, the Brigians occupy NW Anatolia, the Thracians (Bythinnian and Moesian) occupy
NW Anatolia.
"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."~Harry S. Truman

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Re: THE PELASGIAN CASE

#2

Post by Arta » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:23 am

The Pelasgian Language


What is the language the Pelasgians spoke?

Still remain of the Pelasgians who live above the Tyrrheni in the city of Creston--who were once neighbors of the people now called Dorians, and at that time inhabited the country which now is called Thessalian-- and of the Pelasgians who inhabited Placia and Scylace on the Hellespont, who came to live among the Athenians, and by other towns too which were once Pelasgian and afterwards took a different name: if, as I said, one may judge by these, the Pelasgians spoke a language which was not Greek. If, then, all the Pelasgian stock spoke so, then the Attic nation, being of Pelasgian blood, must have changed its language too at the time when it became part of the Hellenes. For the people of Creston and Placia have a language of their own in common, which is not the language
of their neighbors; and it is plain that they still preserve the manner of speech which they brought with them in their migration into
the places where they live.

IDEA: The survival of a city in Tuscany with Pelasgic language is seen as a fact apart of the majoritarlanguage of the region, the Etruscan, pointing that that were not related languages, and that some Pelasgians were not assimilated in Tuscany. So that would lead to think that Etrusc was a direct descendent language of Lydian, supposedly influenced by the Pelasgian and Italic
substrates.

If the Tyrrheni are the Etruscans, then Creston may be Cortona, but is not sure.

Herodotus describes the migration of the Pelasgians to Umbria, where they made Cortona their chief town.

The language of Cortona, which was Etruscan [??], Herodotus said that it was Pelasgian, which is only because he accepts the story
that the Etruscans were, at least partly, Pelasgians.

Strabo: "To Gravisci [city in Toscana], then, the distance is three hundred stadia; and in the interval is a place called Regis Villa. History tells us that this was once the palace of Maleos, the Pelasgian, who, it is said, although he held dominion in the places mentioned, along with the Pelasgi who helped him to colonise them, departed thence to Athens. And this is also the stock to which people belong who have taken and now hold Agylla. Again, for Gravisci to Pyrgi the distance is a little less than one hundred and eighty stadia; it is the port-town of the Caeretani, thirty stadia away. And Pyrgi has a temple of Eilethyia, an establishment of the Pelasgi".

IDEA: Strabo also details the process of colonization and foundation of Greek cities in Magna Grecia [South Italy] and the western coast of Turkey with detail. Few scholars doubt about his informations on that.

IDEA: Confirmation of a Pelasgian migration before that of the Tyrrhenians.

IDEA: Egyptian Sea People "Denyen" could be identified as the Danaans (Pelasgians) ? Which territories they were able to held ?? Maybe Toscana ?

Strabo: "As for Pisa, it was founded by those Pisatae who lived in the Peloponnesus, who made the expedition to Ilium with Nestor and on the return voyage went astray, some to Metapontum, and others to the territory of Pisa, although all of them were called Pylians."

IDEA: then a Greek [or Pelasgian] colony in Toscana; a fact that would point again to a blend between Greek, Linear B Greek and Anatolian.


CONCLUSION:
The actual Tuscany seems was inhabited by native Itatic tribes (Umbri above all), and that after the Trojan War
were pushed towards the mountains by Pelasgians, themselves expelled from Albania and Greece. Some decades after, it would appear a new wave of invaders, in this case coming from Anatolia (Lydians), but could be more logic to think that the Lydians were invaders of Maeonia (as could be seen in the section of Anatolia) from the Aegean Islands, inhabited by Leleges. Some of such Leleges would have remained in the Aegean Islands after the Greek colonization, erecting some centuries after the Lemnos' stele.
"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."~Harry S. Truman

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