"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

THE ETRUSCAN MYSTERY - THEIR ORIGINS - THE PELASGIANS

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THE ETRUSCAN MYSTERY - THEIR ORIGINS - THE PELASGIANS

#1

Post by Arta » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:50 pm

Arutiunov: most probably Etruscan was related to Hurri-Urartic and migrated from Asia Minor.

IDEA: In fact the Lydian, being a descendant language from Luwian, was a blend of Hatti Caucasian and Anatolian Indoeuropean.

There were no voiced stops in Etruscan: no /b/, /d/, or /g/; when these occured in foreign words they were usually written P, T and K.
Etruscan distinguished between aspirated and unaspirated unvoiced stops:
/p/ from /ph/, /c/ from /ch/, /t/ from /th/,like some other
languages of the time, including Greek.

The Sumerians did not distinguish between voiced and voiceless stops like /b/ and /p/, /d/ and /t/, or /g/ and /k/.

LINEAR A language: The phonetics is also surprisingly close to Etruscan (no difference between voiced and voiceless consonants, between l and r and hesitation between l and d) - this mutation was common among many Mediterranean languages and sometimes was borrowed into Latin.

There were no voiced stops in Etruscan: no , [d], or [g], so common in Indo-European tongues; when these sounds occured in
foreign words they were usually written P, T and K. Etruscan distinguished between aspirated and unaspirated unvoiced stops:
[p] from [ph], [c] from [ch], [t] from [th], which was common only in Greek or Iranian languages but not in Italic.

Florentin dialect of Tuscany: mutho, poho, saffa from Italian: muto, poco, sapa.

The language which is conventionally called Prehellenic A is not attested but can be supposed through the study of the tracks it left in Greek. A number of words and of toponym, such as Corinthos or Knossos are not explained through Greek, and does not even appear to be Indo-European, what allows us to suppose they belong to another tongue which would have been spoken in Greece (and in Southern Italy as well) before the coming of the Greeks. This linguistic layer seems to be relatively coherent, with few dialectal variations, what would suggest it was quite recent. The nature of the relationships between this hypothetical language and the neighboring tongues is unclear but it seems to share a few words with Etruscan.

spur (town, city) - Sparte (Greek placename); huth (four) - Uttena (Tetrapolis); netsvis (haruspice) - nedus (viscera); puia (wife) -
opu (I marry); purth (magistrate) - prutanis (magistrate); Corithus (placename in Etruria) - Corinthos in Greece;Curtun (placename) - Gurton in Greece; Tarkhuna (placename, named after a god) - Tarkhuw (to hold a funerary office);tamera (kind of priest) - themeros (holy, sacred); mutu (thyme) - mnthos (mint); tepa (hill) - Thbai or Thebes (placename).

The definite proof of the oriental origin of the Etruscans is that a hero of great significance is Tarchon. He is clearly the Stormgod Tarhun, the highest god of the Luwians and Hittites. In any case Tarchon had the power to ward off lightnings;the Anatolian Tarhunt was the god of lightning.

It is, unfortunately, impossible to really compare and phonology of the two languages, since prehellenic words have been assimilated into the Greek phonetic system. The similarities in vocabulary are, however, striking and clearly suggest that at least one of the languages spoken in Greece prior to the coming of the Greeks was somehow related to Etruscan.

On Etruscan only are known some 250 words and the most basic elements of grammar. We can understand most short writings but longer texts are beyond our understanding. Moreover, Etruscan seems to be an isolate. The only tongues that it is known to related to are the neighboring Rhaetic, of which we know almost nothing, and Lemnian, spoken on a small Aegean island, still very badly understood. Many attempts have been made to decipher Etruscan or to link it to better known language families but, so far, none has given satisfying results. We can only say that Etruscan shows intriguing similarities to Indo-European languages, without belonging to that family.

IDEA: similar would happen to an unkown IE language with half of its vocabulary coming of a Hurrian substrate...

Indo-European is generally considered as a better candidate for Etruscan, even if this hypothesis is far from being accepted by all
scholars. It has long been remarked that the Etruscan nominal morphology resembled the Indo-european one

The Position of Etruscan in the Western Mediterranean ancient linguistic landscape (Perrotin):

Georgiev has described it as a descendent of Hittite, but this theory has not been accepted by Italian etruscologists. Adrados and
Woudhuizen have tried to link it to Lycian (an Anatolian language spoken during the hellenistic period and generally considered
as a descendant of Luwian). Sergent considers Adrados' arguments as a powerful. Faucouneau has also supposed a genetic link
between Lycian and Etruscan: he considers as archaic Indo-European tongues. He would view them as survivors of a old linguistic
layer - called Proto-Indo-european - corresponding to the diffusion of agrarian economy in Europe around 6000 B.C and which
would have been replaced after 4000 B.C by Indo-European stricto-sensu.

Linguistically Lydian is the most deviating of the Anatolian languages. Oettinger (1978) argues that Lydian belonged to the Palaic-Luwian group (which remained after Hittite had left the group). From this group Lydian would have branched off first.

In a few centuries after their arrival to Asai Minor, the Hittites acquired vocabulary, which since then was just 20% Indo-European.
All religious terms, personal names and place names, even many phonetic and morphological peculiarities of Hittite became completely
non-Indo-European.

West Anatolia would have been occupied by non-IE peoples, but later migrations of Anatolians would carry there future Carian,
Lycian, Lydian, etc.

IDEA: So an IE language that only keeps a fifth of the common IE words, what would become if blended again with a non-IE language ?

A co-incidence or relic is the name Shakalasha from the Egyptian list. An ancient city in later region of Lycia was called Sagalassa.
In the sixth century BC it was occupied by Lycians, descendants of Indo-European Luwians, but in the 13th century, when Egypt was
full of fear of Sea Peoples, it was surely a city of some other people, not Hittite - Egyptians never mention Hittites as one of the Sea Peoples. Lycians just settled on these lands, but preserved names of towns as well as the name of the very country - Lukka in Hittite sources.

IDEA: by that resembles so much to Indoeuropean the Etrusc ?

Steinbauer observes that the Etruscan shows most connections (loanwords) with Lydian. The most striking case is the word "tamara" which means "priest" which is similar at hititte word for priest: "damara", which might have an Hurrite origin. Or "erect" in
etruscan is "thuv" where in Lydian was "tuve". Even has words that would lead to an old IE branch: apa/father, ati/mother, avil/year,
usil/sun, etnam/and, lein/die, nefts/nephew, vers/fire, tin/day, spet/drink, etc.

There is a relative consensus among scholars that Etruscan shares a sizable of case and verbal endings with Indo-European. This is
particularly visible for case endings, as all Etruscan nominal endings (with the exception of the plural marker -r) seem to have cognates in Indo-European.

The Etruscan pronominal system - at least the part of it we understand - is relatively close to the Indo-European one, each Etruscan
pronoun having an apparent cognate in Indo-European. It is possible - if rare - for a pronoun to be borrowed (for instance "they" in
modern English) but it is highly unlikely for a whole set of pronoun.

Contrary to what is generally believed, there are real convergences in vocabulary between Etruscan and Indo-European tongues.

clan (son) / *kwl- (descendent)
sekh, sec (daughter) / Thracian sukis (girl) / IE *su- (to engender)
prumaths (grandson) / Irish maq- (son)
neftsh (grandson) / Latin nepos (grandson)
lautn (family, gens) / Proto-Indo-European *leudh (people)
tamna (horse) / Latin domo (I tame)
tur (to give) / Proto-Indo-European don/r- (to give)
tmia (holy building) / Latin domus (house)
avil (year) / Proto-Indo-European *aiw (long period of time)
arac (hawk) / haras (eagle)
math- (mead, inebriating drink) / medhu (honey, mead)

IDEA: More possible IE words: vers- fire; vinum wine; usil sun; tuthi community (Umbrian tota); tin- day; ta (demonstrative) this;puth- cup, vase, well? (Lat. puteus, puteal); mi (pronoun) I, me; lup- (verb) to die; leu- lion; etnam and; eleivana of oil; cupe cup(Lat. cupa); an ( pronoun) he, she.

IDEA: Even numerals seem a blend Hurrian "kig" in Etruscan "three" (ci) with ressembling IE numerals
(thu, huth, sha, semph, nurph for 2, 4, 6, 7, 9).

The next words are numerals from one to teen: mi, erku, erekh, chorkh, hing, vech, evthn, uth, inn, tasn; are Indoeuropean ?


...............................................................................
PART 2


Genetic map of Italy points clearly to a different gene pool type in Toscana that might represent a foreign population. Secondary points also are interesting: Sicily, South Italy, Alps and Liguria-Piedmont. (Alberto Piazza).

A glance at the map makes it probable that these people came by sea, not from the north, from the Urnfield culture (which are mostly
Indo-European peoples).-Proto-Villanova is characterized by the transition to cremation. This is also indeed found often in Asia Minor.

If the Etruscans were in Tuscany already when the Indo-Europeans entered Italy, they would have taken Tuscany just like the whole rest of Italy.

Nel IX secolo si formano in Etruria i primi centri protourbani "villanoviani" (Tarquinia, Cerveteri, Veio ecc.).

Nearly every major Etruscan city of historical times has yielded Villanovan remains, they deposit the ashesin urns along grave goods. Cremation with ashes in a bi-conical vessel is commonly found as a holdover from the Proto-Villanovan;the inhumation also appeared and during the Orientalizing period eventually became the prevailing rite, except in northern Etruria, where cremation persisted to the 1st century BC.

The Latins practiced commonly the inceneration of the deceased (as usual among IE), but since the Empire they changed towards inhumation.

-1000: first iron in Italy with the Villanova Culture (Italics ?), around
-900 the area is attested to be Etruscan. Their rites are Mediterranean:they were buried in fossae, after some centuries in tumulus and with ritual sacrifices.
-800/-450 Etruscans in Toscana, Alps and Corsica.

The Etruscan civilization existed in Etruria in the northern part of what is now Italy prior to the formation of the Roman Republic.
Etruscans were a non-Indo-European people who inhabited northern and central Italy before 800 BC. Herodotus records the legend that they came from Lydia, which has support from non-Greek inscriptions found on the island of Lemnos that appear to be in a language related to Etruscan, and have been dated to the sixth century BC.

The Greeks called the Etruscans Tyrsenoi, a name they also used for people in the north-west of Asia Minor.

IDEA: And this name seems related with the own name that the Etruscans used for themselves: Rasenas (Ty + Rsena or Ty + Rhena);also Lycians showed a tendence to save vocals: the Greeks named them Termilians, but they named to themselves Trmmil.

According to the Victory Stela found near Thebes, the Sea Peoples destroyed the Hittite kingdom, and consisted of the following peoples or clans: Shardana [Sardinians], Lukka [Lycians], Meshwesh [Meoinians ?], Teresh [Tyrrhenians], Ekwesh [Acheans...] and Shekelesh [Siculs]. Palestines and the future Phoenicians. The Teresh and Lukka were probably from western Anatolia, and may correspond to the ancestors of the later Lydians and Lycians, respectively. However, the Teresh may also have been the people later known to the Greeks as the Tyrsenoi, the Etruscans, and already familiar to the Hittites as the Taruisa, which latter is suspiciously similar to the Greek Troia.

After the names of Priamos and Paris had been interpreted as Luwian, in any case Anatolian, and with the recent find of the Luwian
seal in the city of Troy, it was believed that the Trojans spoke Luwian.

In regard to Crete, writers agree that in ancient times it had good laws, and rendered the best of the Greeks its emulators, and in particular the Lacedaemonians, as is shown, for instance, by Plato and also by Ephorus, who in his Europe has described its constitution. But later it changed very much for the worse; for after the Tyrrhenians, who more than any other people ravaged Our Sea [the Mediterranean], the Cretans succeeded to the business of piracy [...]. (Strabo).

Strabo: "The Tyrrheni, then, are called among the Romans "Etrusci" and "Tusci" [from there Toscana]. The Greeks, however, so the story goes, named them thus after Tyrrhenus, the son of Atys, who sent forth colonists hither from Lydia: At a time of famine and dearth of crops, Atys, one of the descendants of Heracles and Omphale, having only two children, by a casting of lots detained one of them,Lydus, and, assembling the greater part of the people with the other, Tyrrhenus, sent them forth. And when Tyrrhenus came, he not only called the country Tyrrhenia after himself, but also put Tarco in charge as "colonizer," and founded twelve cities; Tarco, I say, after whom the city of Tarquinia is named, who, on account of his sagacity from boyhood, is said by the myth-tellers to have been born with grey hair. Now at first the Tyrrheni, since they were subject to the orders of only one ruler, were very strong..."

Nor must we forget that the Etruscans declared consanguinity with Sardis on the ground of an early colonisation of Etruria by the
Lydians (Tacitus, ANN., IV, 55).

And the Lydians themselves say that the games which are now in use among them and among the Hellenes were also their invention.
These they say were invented among them at the same time as they colonised Tyrsenia, and this is the account they give of them:
-In the reign of Atys the son of Manes their king there came to be a grievous dearth over the whole of Lydia; and the Lydians for a
time continued to endure it, but afterwards, as it did not cease, they sought for remedies; and one devised one thing and another of them devised another thing. And then were discovered, they say, the ways of playing with the dice and the knuckle bones and the ball, and all the other games excepting draughts (for the discovery of this last is not claimed by the Lydians). These games they invented as a resource against the famine, and thus they used to do:-on one of the days they would play games all the time in order that they might not feel the want of food, and on the next they ceased from their games and had food: and thus they went on for eighteen years. As however the evil did not slacken but pressed upon them ever more and more, therefore their king divided the whole Lydian people into two parts, and he appointed by lot one part to remain and the other to go forth from the land; and the king appointed himself to be over that one of the partswhich had the lot to stay in the land, and his son to be over that which was
departing; and the name of his son was Tyrsenos. So the one party of them, having obtained the lot to go forth from the land, went down to the sea at Smyrna and built ships for themselves, wherein they placed all the movable goods which they had and sailed away to seek for means of living and a land to dwell in; until after passing by many nations they came at last to the land of the Ombricans, and there they founded cities and dwell up to the present time: and changing their name they were called after the kings son who led them out from home, not Lydians but Tyrsenians, taking the name from him. (Herodotus).

IDEA: The Lydians themselves recognized that the Etruscans were their descendants, keeping also some details.

And Euripides too, in his Archelaus, says: 'Danaus, the father of fifty daughters, on coming into Argos, took up his abode in the city of Inachus, and throughout Greece he laid down a law that all people hitherto named Pelasgians were to be called Danaans'. And again, Anticleides says that they were the first to settle the regions round about Lemnos and Imbros, and indeed that some of these sailed away to Italy with Tyrrhenus the son of Atys. And the compilers of the histories of The Land of Atthis give accounts of the Pelasgi, believing that the Pelasgi were in fact at Athens too, although the Pelasgi were by the Attic people called 'Pelargi', the compilers add, because they were wanderers and, like birds, resorted to those places whither chance led them.(Strabo).

IDEA: There was a joint or almost consecutive colonization of Etruria by Pelasgian and Lydian elements, so Etrusc from which of these cultures is debt ? As Etrusc does not ressembles Epiro-Macedonian (the Pelasgian de facto), it is to suppose that it was originated from Lydian.

Strabo: "Among the Greeks, however, this city [Caere, one of the twentycities founded by Tyrrhenus] was in good repute both for bravery and for righteousness; for it not only abstained from all piracy [as was usual among the Sea Peoples], but also set up at Pytho what is called "the treasury of the Agyllaei"; for what is now Caerea was formerly called Agylla, and is said to have been founded by Pelasgi who had come from Thessaly. But when those Lydians whose name was changed to Tyrrheni marched against the Agyllaei, one of them approached the wall and inquired what the name of the city was, and when one of the Thessalians on the wall, instead of replying to the inquiry, saluted him with a 'Chaere' ".

PELASGIANS were not TYRRHENIANS, and had not related languages:
they were not able to understood even a salutation.

The Lydians, on the other hand, are expressly stated to have had nothing in common with the Pelasgians (Dion. i. 30).

Proto-Villanovia = Pelasgians with bronze, Villanova = Anatolian Etruscans with iron ??


Strabo, Geography book 6:
All of it is rugged and mountainous, since it embraces a large portion of the Apennine Mountains;
and it is thought to have admitted Arcadians [Pelasgians] as colonists.

IDEA: It would point that first was a Pelasgian colonization, and that the Etruscan could be a blend of Pelasgian [Linear B Greek or Epiro-Macedonian possibly] and Lydian [Anatolian Indoeuropean plus Hatti].

Herodotus:
"therefore their king divided the whole Lydian people into two parts, and he appointed by lot one part to remain and the other to go forth from the land; and the king appointed himself to be over that one of the parts which had the lot to stay in the land, and his son to be over that which was departing; and the name of his son was Tyrsenos. So the one party of them, having obtained the lot to go forth from the land, went down to the sea at Smyrna and built ships for themselves, wherein they placed all the movable goods which they had and sailed away to seek for means of living and a land to dwell in; until after passing by many nations they came at last to the land of the Ombricans [Umbrians], and there they founded cities and dwell up to the present time: and changing their name they were called after the king’s son who led them out from home, not Lydians but Tyrsenians, taking the name from him."

Next to this comes the seventh region, in which is Etruria, a district which begins at the river Macra, and has often changed its name.
At an early period the Umbri were expelled from it by the Pelasgi; and these again by the Lydians, who from a king of theirs were named Tyrrheni, but afterwards, from the rites observed in their sacrifices, were called, in the Greek language , Tusci (Pliny).
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Re: THE ETRUSCAN MYSTERY - THEIR ORIGINS - THE PELASGIANS

#2

Post by Arta » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:11 pm

Etruscans and Veneti


Ais appears to be pan-italic, as it is present in Umbrian esono- (divine), Oscan aisusis and Venetian aisu (god). This is generally
interpreted as a borrowing from Etruscan, but this is unlikely, since this word appears also in a Gaulish inscription from Paris as Esus.
The territory of north-eastern Italy and the adjacent regions of modern Slovenia and Austria used to be inhabited in Roman times
by the tribes of Veneti. Venetic is the language of the Iron Age Este culture. There are over 200 inscriptions, though none over ten words long, written from the VI to the I century BC in an Indo-European language. The inscriptions use an Etruscan-like alphabet.
Venetic is believed to be a single group very close to Italic, Illyrian and Celtic. Obvious are contacts with Etruscan and maybe Rhaetian.

IDEA: As Etruscans were colonizing the Venetic neighbour regions around -600, and as the Venetic alphabet is clearly based in that of the Etruscans, it seems quite evident that high culture was debt to Etruscans.

Example inscription: "mego zontasto sainatei reitiai porai egeotora aimoi ke louzerophos" (in Latin would be: me donavit sanatrici Reitiae / Rectia bonae Egetora pro Aemo et -que liberis) meaning "Egetora gave me to the Good Reitia the Healer on behalf of Aemus and the children".

The reflection of Indo-European stops is very similar [in Venetic] to Latin and Illyrian - voiced aspirates disappear. New spirants
f, h, ts appear, the Indo-European labiovelar *KW was preserved.

Golasecca with iron and celtoid population (Lepontics).

The Urnfield Culture is generally assumed to have Celtic, or Proto-Celtic speaking (Sergent, 1996), (Mallory, 1989), and also its
northern Italian extensions: the Paleo-Venetian culture associated with inscriptions in an Indo-European tongue generally thought to
be close to Latin (Sergent, 1996), and the Golasecca culture, associated with inscriptions in an early Celtic dialect called Lepontic
(Sergent, 1996), (Lambert, 1997).

The Lepontic was spoken in the lake region of northern Italy between -700 and -400; however, it most probably was used before and after this date as well, though we have no existing proof of that. The Lepontic peoples lived along the periphery of a number of other groupings of people and in close contact with the Ligurians and Rhaetians (non-Indoeuropean tribes of the north part of Italy), in addition to the Etruscans and Venetians, and that is why their language is considered to be mixed in various ways with these others. Scientists agree to the statement that Lepontic Celts came here during one of the first waves of Celtic expansion over Europe and lived in the region until they were eventually assimilated by the expanded Latin (Roman) state (or by the later-arrived Senone Gauls, who represented the next major Celtic wave). We can only state that Lepontic was a P-Celtic tongue, but of a specific group different from both Brythonic and Goidelic. [After, the] Gauls came to Northern Italy in the early 4th century BC breaking up this balance of ethnic groups in the region.

Urnfield Culture (-1300), with cremation, spreads to the Lacio.


The ancient Romans used incineration many centuries. Both cremation and inhumation were practiced by the Umbro-Oscans.
We know that Italic languages suffered significant phonetic changes due to pre-Indo-European population of Italy, especially this
influenced Umbrian, Picene and Volscian. It looks like Latin also had not only lexical influence of Etruscan, but phonetic as well.

The Latin had sister languages also in Italy (Oscan, Umbrian, Falisc, etc.). These, along Latin constitute the Italic languages, that lead to suppose that there was once a proto-Italic that might have been spoken around -1200.

IDEA: The Italic languages would have splitted from a Illyro-Celto-Italic branch by influx of the substrate language/s present in Italy ? In the other hand, the Celto-Illyrian would be more near to Celtic and Illyrian in the north as it was already IE (Terramare Culture).

At Ancona begins the coast of that part of Gaul known as Gallia Togata [North Italy, Po Bassin]. The Siculi [Epiro-Macedonians, also
Pelasgians] and the Liburni [Illyrian tribe] possessed the greater part of this district [since -1200, as the presence of Illyrians and Epirotes is posterior to the Trojan War], and more particularly the territories of Palma, of Praetutia, and of Adria. These were expelled by the Umbri [Italics, as Urnfield invaders, -1200], these again by the Etrurians [around
-600, the colonists will be known as Raethians], and these in
their turn by the Gauls [by -400, Celtics that will be the dominant ethnic
element in the Po Basin at the arrival of the Romans]. (Pliny).

IDEA: That would point to a later arrival of the Italic tribes to Italy.

L' Etruscologue italien, Mario Torelli, a Ecrit dans une etude de l'ancienne religion étrusque à propos de la présence latine
dans l'Italie préhistorique: après avoir attiré l'attention sur la "singulière et jusqu'à présent sous-estimée 'suprémacie' de l'ambiance latino-falisque et italique orientale sur celle étrusque" il affirme que "la contribution humaine latine,falisque et italique à la phase intense de développement culturel d'époque villanovienne a été vraiment énorme"La documentation de cette affirmation se trouve dans la série d'emprunts au Latin et aux langues Italiques dans la théonymie étrusque: Ana Anna, Maris Marte, Menerva Minerva, Uni Iuno, Suris Soranus, Nethuns Neptunus, Satre Saturnus, Vetis/Veive Vediovis,Selvans Silvanus. Ce que cette documentation démontre, en effet, c'est ni plus ni moins la présence latine et italique dans l'Italie pré-villanovienne, c'est à dire du II millénaire au plus tard.

ETRUSCAN DIVINITIES: mainly Mediterranean as Aplu (Apolo), Silvano, Turma (Hermes or Mercury) Losna (Luna, Moon),Esta (Vesta) along others unknown (Tinia as Zeus), Turanna (as Fortune), Fufluns (as Baccus), Sethlans (as Vulcanus).

Herodotus: "therefore their king divided the whole Lydian people into two parts, and he appointed by lot one part to remain and the other to go forth from the land; and the king appointed himself to be over that one of the parts which had the lot to stay in the land, and his son to be over that which was departing; and the name of his son was Tyrsenos. So the one party of them, having obtained the lot to go forth from the land, went down to the sea at Smyrna and built ships for themselves, wherein they placed all the movable goods which they had and sailed away to seek for means of living and a land to dwell in; until after passing by many nations they came at last to the land of the Ombricans [Umbrians], and there they founded cities and dwell up to the present time: and changing their name they were called after the king’s son who led them out from home, not Lydians but
Tyrsenians, taking the name from him."

IDEA: So they found stablished Italic tribes in the Tuscany [around -1100].

The Umbri are thought to have been the most ancient race in Italy, it being supposed that they were called "Ombrii" by the Greeks, from the fact of their having survived the rains which had inundated the earth. We read that 300 of their towns were conquered by the Tusci [Etrurians] (Pliny).

Next to this comes the seventh region, in which is Etruria, a district which begins at the river Macra, and has often changed its name.
At an early period the Umbri were expelled from it by the Pelasgi; and these again by the Lydians, who from a king of theirs were named Tyrrheni, but afterwards, from the rites observed in their sacrifices, were called, in the Greek language , Tusci (Pliny).

UMBRI were not PELASGIAN

South of Rome there were two main cultures: the Adriatic, with inhumation and extended in those areas occupied by Illyrians,
in the Adriatic side [Messapics]; and the culture Fosse Tombs in the Tyrrhenian side, including also Sicily [Sicani ?].

CONCLUSION: It is not clear that the Italics entered Italy with the first IE that arrive to the Penninsula around -2100. In whichever case, these IE would be represented by the Euganei, but we don't know any realistic filiation for them.
In the other side, being the Terramaricoles a derivation of the Balkanic Vucedol culture, many times identified as Illyrian... In the other side we must not forget that Bell Beakers (supposedly carriers of a Italo-Celtic language) also were present in North Italy, so that the Urnfield peoples would have not found a nation and language too different from themselves (being themselves sprout from Bell Beakers). Around -1200 Italy suffered first an invasion of peoples that carried the Urnfield culture to the north: the Golasecca
(or Celtoid Lepontics) and the Este (or Illyrian Liburnians / Venetians), implying the cremation of the deceased. The Urnfield peoples also reached the Tuscany, but there would be represented by Celto-Italics that suffered an strong influence from a non-IE substrate, so driving away the Italic branch from the common language. The Urnfield expansions also led to expulsions of native peoples of Greece and Turkey, and then many choosed Italy as destiny, as will be seen.

VENETS

Venetic speakers are sometimes identified as Italics or Illyrians, but evidently they were none of them, though closely related to
these two groups. Also Venetic has close ties with P-Celtic and Germanic languages.

Attested that Venetic was near to the Latin group.

IDEA: In the other side to deny the filiation of Venetic with Illyrian is unreasonable since the Illyrian toponymy reflects the language spoken before the arrival of the Slavs to Dalmatia (around 500 AC), enough time as to evolve after two millennia in the region (please think over the different evolution of Spanish and Romanian, as in "cuatro" and "patru").

IDEA: In fact the Illyrian has not left inscriptions... but being the Venetic an Illyrian branch that would display that the Illyrian, coming from a culture common for Celtics and Italics (the Urnfield Culture), it would be logic to branch Illyrian with Celto-Italic, in fact modern Albanese ressembles more Italian than any Celtic language.

INFO: Veneti could correspond to Alb. vendi 'homeland, country' hence an Illyrian name.

INFO: Latin dies day => Rumanian zi. Also in Venetic: *DO- > zono (where Italic got dono, "I give"). So it
seems that Venetic and Romanian suffered a similar substrate influence.

INFO: Contrarily to the theory stablished by Romanian linguists, the Romanian sprout in the southern Balkans, not in Romania as many evidences point it.

VENETIC ITALIAN DIALECT: It follows the main Italian characteristics, but with some major exceptions as the sonorization of intervocalic PTK, the group LI becomes j (ALIO > ajo); group SCI > s, consonantic sonority, and loss of final -E (PANE > pan).

IDEA: The high degree of retention of Latin/Italian characteristics would confirm then that the substrate language of this dialect did not differed too much from Italic.

Herodotus (i. 196) includes under the name of Illyrians the Heneti or Veneti, who lived at the head of the gulf; in another passage
(iv. 49) he places the Illyrians on the tributary streams of the Morava river [Bosnia].

Appian, The Foreign Wars: "In order to make use of his leisure in the meantime, Sulla marched against the Eneti, the Dardani [Illyrian tribe], and the Sinti, tribes on the border of Macedonia, who were continually invading that country, and devasted their territory."

Herodotus had heard of the Heneti or Eneti on the Adriatic, and he speaks of Eneti as Illyrians.

Herodotus, The Histories: "The wisest of these, in our judgment, is one which I have learned by inquiry is also a custom of the Eneti in Illyria."

VENETI = HENETI = ILLYRIANS

IDEA: It seems probable that there was an Illyrian tribe known as Venetic near Kosovo, but that by logic reasonement, they would have occupied the areas colonized by the Illyrian Liburnians.

IDEA: If the Venetic was an Illyrian dialect, by theory with the help of modern Albanian it could be possible
to understand partly Venetic inscriptions

PART 2

IDEA: Another possibility would be that the Pannonians of Hungary conquered the previous IE tribes of Dalmatia, even some near Kosovo (Eneti), and some in the Troad (Eneti and Teucrians in the area). So the Pannonians would be
both ethnic and geographic origin of the Illyrian / Venetic tribes, being one of these the Veneti of Italy, coming to thepenninsula with other Illyrian tribes as the Liburnians or the Messapians. In whichever case, till the filiation of Venetic would not be clear, it will be difficult to explain the arrival of the Italics.

At Ancona begins the coast of that part of Gaul known as Gallia Togata [North Italy, Po Bassin]. The Siculi [Pelasgians] and the Liburni [Illryians] possessed the greater part of this district, and more particularly the territories of Palma, of Praetutia, and of Adria. These were expelled by the Umbri, these again by the Etrurians, and these in their turn by the Gauls. (Pliny).

IDEA: The fact that a Illyrian tribe occupied the Po Basin before the Italics point to an early date: maybe -1100 ? Also the fact to don't mention Venetics points that they were originated from the Illyrians or from the Umbri...

Catone, autore vissuto tra III e II secolo a. C., per qualificare i Veneti di stirpe troiana (Plin. Nat. Hist. III, 130: "Venetos troiana stirpe ortos auctor est Cato").

IDEA: And as can be seen in the Anatolian section, the Trojans seem to be related to Paeonians /Pannonians, and these related to Illyrians... Moreover a branch of Paeones dwelt in the Troad.

The Illyrians were stablished in the north coast of the Adriatic Sea since -1300. Among the Illyrian tribes, there were the Dalmatians
and the Pannonians as the most famous. Another group of Illyrians, the Messapians, crossed the sea and colonized the Adriatic
coast of Italy, these left some epigraphic material.

History of Rome (Ab Urbe Condita) by Titus Livius:
To begin with, it is generally admitted that after the capture of Troy, whilst the rest of the Trojans were massacred, against two of them-- Aeneas and Antenor -- the Achivi refused to exercise the rights of war, partly owing to old ties of hospitality, and partly because these men had always been in favour of making peace and surrendering Helen. Their subsequent fortunes were different. Antenor sailed into the furthest part of the Adriatic Sea, Enetians who had been driven from Paphlagonia by a revolution and after losing their king Pylaemenes before Troy were looking for a settlement and a leader. The combined force of Enetians and Trojans defeated the Euganei, who dwelt between the sea and the Alps and occupied their land. The place where they disembarked was called Troy, and the name was extended to the surrounding district; the whole nation were called Veneti.

ENETIANS were not TROJANS: "combined force of Enetians and Trojans".

IDEA: The fact to mention a country with a name of a tribe doesnot imply to have similar language, take the case of the Germanic Franks in France; but such situation would point to a period of dominance at least.

"As to Aeneas, Antenor, and the Enetians, and, in a word, the survivors of the Trojan War that wandered forth into the whole inhabited world - is it proper not to reckon them among the men of ancient times? For it came about that, on account of the length of the campaign,the Greeks of that time, and the barbarians as well, lost both what they had at home and what they had acquired by the campaign; and so, after the destruction of Troy, not only did the victors turn to piracy because of their poverty, the still more the vanquished who survived the war. And, indeed, it is said that a great many cities were founded by them along the whole sea-coast outside of Greece, and in some places in the interior too." (Strabo).

And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea. But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country, as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy. It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. (Strabo).

Maeandrius says that the Eneti first set forth from the country of the White Syrians [north Turkey]and allied themselves with the Trojans, and that they sailed away from Troy with the Thracians and took up their abode round the recess of the Adrias, but that the Eneti who did not have a part in the expedition had become Cappadocians [have changed language]. (Strabo).

At any rate, Sophocles says that at the capture of Troy a leopard's skin was put before the doors of Antenor as a sign that his house was to be left unpillaged; and Antenor and his children safely escaped to Thrace with the survivors of the Heneti, and from there got across to the Adriatic Henetice. (Strabo).

Livy, History of Rome: Antenor sailed into the furthest part of the Adriatic, accompanied by a number of Enetians who had been driven from Paphlagonia by a revolution and after losing their king Pylaemenes before Troy were looking for a settlement and a leader.

IDEA: Such Enetians not necessarily were native Paphlagonians but colonists from the Balkans expelled by natives.

In the Illiad, Homer refers to the Paphlagonians as one of the most ancient nations of Asia Minor, derived from the Eneti or Heneti. This reference has prompted speculations that the Paphlagonians are a stray branch of the Veneti, who migrated from the Balkans to settle at the head of the Adriatic. Others suggest that the Paphlagonians are kin to the Macedonians tracing common roots to the Phrygians.

IDEA: As in the Anatolian section it seems that the Trojans can be linked to Teucrians, and those to Pannonians/Paeones, and the last are related to the Illyrians, the mith about a common ancestry between Veneti and Trojans could be recognized.
"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."~Harry S. Truman

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Re: THE ETRUSCAN MYSTERY - THEIR ORIGINS - THE PELASGIANS

#3

Post by Arta » Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:56 am

RAETHIANS (OR THE NORTH ETRUSCANS)


The Raethians occupied an area east of Trento and Verona.

It seems that Rhaetic is related to Etruscan, for it is seen many similar phonetic characteristics as well as grammatical terminations.
It may thus be another relic of the pre-Indo-European substratum of Italy.

Rhaetic was very close to `classical` Etruscan, perhaps even a mere dialect of it, what is by no way surprising, the territories of the two peoples being adjacent.

The ancient Raetian province (Rhaetia o Rhaetica) was a territory that was situated between the Alps, the High Danube and the Inn
River. This region was inhabited by the rhaetii or raeti which left many inscriptions in their language, a language not linked yet but that seems to have common endings with Etruscan, and maybe both could be related. Moreover there are certain number of words
that seem to have Etruscan correspondences.

The Rhaetii were a mountain people inhabiting Eastern and Southern Switzerland, Southern Bavaria , Western Austria and Northern Italy. Rhaetic was very close to `classical` Etruscan, perhaps even a mere dialect of it, what is by no way surprising, the territories of the two peoples being adjacent.

The Lepontii was an Alpine people, who inhabited the valleys on the south side of the Alps, about the head of the two great lakes, the Lago Como and Lago Maggiore. Strabo tells us distinctly that they were a Rhaetian tribe (iv. p. 206), and adds that, like many others of the minor Alpine tribes, they had at one time spread further into Italy, but had been gradually driven back into the mountains. (Ib. p. 204.) There is some difficulty in determining the position and limits of their territory. Caesar tells us that the Rhine took its rise in the country of the Lepontii (B. G. iv. 10), and Pliny says that the Uberi (or Viberi), who were a tribe of the Lepontii, occupied the sources of the Rhone(Plin. iii. 20. s. 24). [the Grisuns and the Valais cantons, both in S. Switzerland].

Many nations dwell among the Alps; but the more remarkable, between Pola and the district of Tergeste, are the Secusses, the Subocrini, the Catali, the Menocaleni, and near the Carni the people formerly called the Taurisci, but now the Norici. Adjoining to these are the Rhæti and the Vindelici, who are all divided into a multitude of states. It is supposed that the Rhæti are the descendants of the Tuscans, who were expelled by the Gauls and migrated hither under the command of their chief, whose name was Rhætus. Turning then to the side of the Alps which fronts Italy, we have the Euganean nations enjoying Latin rights, and of whom Cato enumerates thirty-four towns. [...] The Vennonenses and the Sarunetes , peoples of the Rhe¦ti, dwell about the
sources of the river Rhenus [Rhin, the Grisuns region in Switzerland], while the tribe of the Lepontii, known as the Uberi, dwell in
the vicinity of the sources of the Rhodanus [Valais], in the same district of the Alps. There are also other native tribes here, who have received Latin rights, such as the Octodurenses , and their neighbours the Centrones , the Cottian states, the Ligurian Vagienni, descended from the Caturiges [Gaulish tribe], as also those called Montani; besides numerous nations of the Capillati , on the confines of the Ligurian Sea. (Pliny).

IDEA: According to such account, the Raethians would be Etruscans who fled northwards from their colonies placed along the Po river.

IDEA: Etruscan own name (Rasennas) would be linked with "Raethians" ?
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Re: THE ETRUSCAN MYSTERY - THEIR ORIGINS - THE PELASGIANS

#4

Post by jay_albania_fan » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:57 am

Here are some of my responses to your ideas etc:

IDEA: In fact the Lydian, being a descendant language from Luwian, was a blend of Hatti Caucasian and Anatolian Indoeuropean.

All of the Anatolian languages had influence from the pre-IE languages spoken there. Hittite supplanted Hattic although the Hittites continued to use Hattic for some religious texts. Here is an example of a bilingual Hattic and Hittite text:

Hattic: Malḫibḫu tetaḫšul ašaḫbi taštuta šula Šulinkatti katti taniwaš unḫubi.

Hittite: Našta aššu anda tarneškiddu idalmukan anda le tarnai Šulinkattiššan ḫaššuš anda ešzi.

English: Then he shall let in the good one, but the evil one he shall not let in; King Shulinkatti is inside.

Hittite anda and ešzi are Indo-European roots. While Hattic uses prefixes, Hittite uses suffixes. Despite the early attestation of Hittite, it is obvious from some of its sound changes and vocabulary, it has been heavily influenced by non-IE languages. As well, Hattic is a language isolate. Caucasian does not form a valid genetic language family.



LINEAR A language: The phonetics is also surprisingly close to Etruscan (no difference between voiced and voiceless consonants, between l and r and hesitation between l and d) - this mutation was common among many Mediterranean languages and sometimes was borrowed into Latin.

Linear A is another language isolate although one which has not been translated. Phonetic similarities are not enough to establish a relationship as many unrelated languages have similar phonological systems (especially neighboring ones). Etruscan has been shown to be related to Lemnian (ancient language of the island of Lemnos) and Raetic. These languages often called Tyrrhenian form their own language family. It has never been demonstrated to be related to another language family. It is possible that they are related to Indo-European, but there is no consensus for this. As well, we shouldn't forget the extinct language isolate North Picene in Italy. The pre-Italic extinct language of Sardinia seems to have been related to Basque, but the data is scarce.


IDEA: That would point to a later arrival of the Italic tribes to Italy.

It would be interesting to consider if Messapic predates Italic in Italy or not...

INFO: Contrarily to the theory stablished by Romanian linguists, the Romanian sprout in the southern Balkans, not in Romania as many evidences point it.

I agree 100% here. It is more likely that the Latin from the initial Roman conquering of Dacia is not survive due to the short stay of the Romans in Dacia.

IDEA: If the Venetic was an Illyrian dialect, by theory with the help of modern Albanian it could be possible to understand partly Venetic inscriptions

Venetic in my opinion was probably a transitional Illyrian to Italic dialect. The dialect situation in Illyria was probably very complex due to its geographic size.
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Re: THE ETRUSCAN MYSTERY - THEIR ORIGINS - THE PELASGIANS

#5

Post by Arta » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:35 am

Thank you for giving your insight Jay, I will let Zeus or someone else that knows more about this topic in languages answer you...:)
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