"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

Këtu mund të flisni mbi historinë tonë duke sjellë fakte historike për ndriçimin e asaj pjese të historisë mbi të cilen ka rënë harresa e kohës dhe e njerëzve.

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Arta
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

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elikranon ja lexoje pak kete, meqe na solle ato te dhenat e tua!

PSE GREKËT E ZUNË ME “ GURË” HISTORIANIN DHE GJUHËTARIN GJERMAN, FOLLMERAYER ( 1790 – 1861 )

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PILO ZYBA


Nga fundi i vitit 1833 vjen në greqi për dy muaj një profesor i historisë botërore dhe të gjuhëve klasike në gjimnazin e qytetit, Landshut në Bavari. Shkrimtari i dy librave për jetën dhe kulturën greke të mesjetës. Librin e parë ai e shkruan për sundimin e Trapezundës dhe e boton në vitin 1827 në Mynih me titull “Geschichte des Kaisertums von Trapezunt”.Ndërsa librin e dytë e shkruan për historinë e More- së me titull “Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea während des Mittelalters, Stuttgart - Tübingen 1830).
Ky professor quhej Kaisartums Von Follmerayer ( 1790 – 1861 ). Ai shoqërohet nga ushtaraku i lartë rus Aleksandër Tolstoi. Ai interesohet për toponimet e zonave dhe vëndeve.Shkruan një artikull i entuziazmuar për historinë e athinës. Artikulli i tij mirëpritet dhe i bëhet shumë jehonë.

Të entuziazmuar, grekët i kërkojnë të japi leksion në degën e histories, por ai në mënyrë modeste nuk pranon.
Rikthehet përsëri në greqi në vitin 1842 në vizitën e dytë të tij. Tani ka dhe titullin, Akademik i Mynihut, dhe drejtues i gazettes më të madhe gjermane “Augsburger Allgemein Zeitung„. Ndërkohë ka botuar dy libra për të shkuarën dhe grekërve të sotëm. (Welchen Einfluß hatte die Besetzung Griechenlands durch die Slawen auf das Schicksal der Stadt Athen und der Landschaft Attika? Stuttgart - Tübingen 1835) Dhe vëllimin e dytë , të historisë së Moresë (1836). Ai qëndroi 15 ditë, dhe, iku me mendimin që vepra e tij njihej shumë pak në greqi. Pesë vjet më von, në maj të vitit 1847 vjen për here të tretë në greqi. Zotëria Bavarez ishte tashmë i madh dhe i njohur. Ai ka nxjerrë dy vëllime të tjerë në Shtudgard ( 1843) (Fragmente aus dem Orient, Stuttgart – Tübingen 1843) “Fragmente nga Orjenti”. Është nder i Akademisë së universitetit të Tubingen. Pak ditë se të bëhej Dr. në universitetin e Mynihut dhe zgjedhjes së tij si deputet i Frangfurtit. Pritja në greqi është shumë e keqe, në athinë e zënë me “ gurë”, gazetat e nxjerrin në karikaturë. Shtatë profesorë dhe akademikë e historian shkruajnë hapur kundër tij, B. Bubilaqis, Dh. Surmelis, G, Pendadhis, S.Ikonomu, A.Lefkias, A. Vretos etj.

Çfar ka ndodhur ?

Grekët kanë kuptuar shkrimet dhe mendimet e tij për grekët dhe greqinë. Follmeayer shkruan “ Grekët e sotëm, nuk janë trashëgimtarët e grekëve të lashtë”.
Është e vërtetë, Follmeayer ka firmosur mendimin e tij se, grekët nuk janë trashëgimtarët apo pasardhësit e histories greke. Faqe. 94.

Grekët nuk e njohin veprën e Follmeayer – it, i cili në vitin 1860 në një studim vendos fakte të shqiptarëve dhe historisë, toponime dhe gjuhës shqipo në greqi. (Das albanesische Element in Griechenland) 1860.Në vitin 1872 boton një studim të tij për poloponezin. I cili nuk është më shumë se dy-tre faqe dhe i bashkangjitet librit “ Historia e Moresë” ai gjëndet dhe i përkthyer nga ( Hopf 1872 faqe.39 – 41)

Grekët nuk do ta njohin veprën e tij, dhe idenë e saj se, në greqi pjesa dërmuese e popullsisë është shqiptare ajo nuk do përkthehet në greqi. Dhe kjo ishte vetëm në dy faqe të vepres së tij.Mjaftuan vetëm dy faqe të medimit të tij, që grekët të betoheshin dhe të hidhnin poshtë, e të mos botohej asnjë nga veprat e tij në greqi.
Do të duheshin 147 dhe 172 vjet që nga koha e heretikëve, Kostandinos Romanos dhe Pandeli Sofxoglu, që ato të përktheheshin dhe të botoheshin në greqi. Follmeayer do të ishte i pari studjues europian që shpreh me siguri mos lidhjen e grekëve të lashtë me atë të epokës së re.

Majeri, do ishte i pari studjues që shpreh me siguri vazhdimësinë e grekërve të lashtë dhe greqisë së re. Gjermani Pauw, o Prosos Bartholdy dhe anglezet Gell dhe Thorton, që shkruan përpara tij “Gjysëm grekët” Simopulos..1975 faqe . 180.
Në shtetin grek kishte kontradita të brëndëshme përsa i përket lashtësisë së greqisë.Përshëmbull, Nikollas Soripaloa në leksionet e tij në universitetin e Historisë në athinë shkruan në 21 tetor 1848 “Pas betejës së Qeronias një perde skllavërie e mbuloi popullsinë e greqisë dhe vetë greqinë” Zakinthos 1974 faqe..100.
Follmerayer e quan humbjen e Qeronias një traumë të rëndë e shoqëruar me rënien e Korinthit dhe katastrofën që shkaktoi Mimio, hyrjen e Bizantit kundër fesë së lashtë.Këto sollën plagosjen dhe vdekjen e politikës së lashtësisë greke.
“ Vdekja biologjike erdhi si rezultat i pushtimeve Arabe dhe Sllave, pushtime këto që vazhduan dy shekuj” Follmerayer...faqe...170 – 225.

Mayer përdori historianët e bizantit që të themelioste bindjet e tij. Përdori emrat dhe toponimet, të cilat jetojnë edhe sot. Sipas tij, pas pushtimit Sllav grekët gjuhëfolës të shpërndarë në bizant u bashkuan, bashkë me popullsinë e Moresë dhe Romët, italianët e sotëm. Të dhënat e Mayer, ishin shigjetë direkte për të vërtetën e lashtësisë dhe të sotmes së greqisë. Kjo e bën kulturën greke dhe historianët e saj që ta shikojnë atë si shkatërrues të historisë tyre. Skllavërimi i greqisë dhe grekëve në mesjetë bëhet fakt për shpërbërjen gjinore dhe kombëtare të tyre.

Tashmë vepra e Tij është e përkthyer edhe në gjuhën greke, ajo është e pranushme përsa thotë, dhe kërkon të sqaroi opinjonin botëror për pranimin e faktit se, greqia është e banuar nga shqiptarë. Këtë e tregojnë toponime, emrat, gjuha, arti i tyre i veçantë që nuk ka lidhje me atë grek, veshja kombëtare apo tradicionale e tyre, si dhe ritet e ndryshme që bëjnë pjesë në jetën e tyre, të shoqërisë apo kultit të individit.U deshën disa breza studjuesish grekë që të pranojnë atë që Mayer e thoshte para 175 vjetësh, me fakte bindëse dhe duke u mbështetur mbi bazat e vërteta të mënyrës së jetesës së shqiptarëve që ata i quajnë Arvanites... duke dashur të mohojnë emrin e tyre të thjeshtë e të bukur SHQIPTAR.
"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."~Harry S. Truman
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#137

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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#138

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Anthropological Evidence and the Fallmerayer Thesis
by Dienekes Pontikos
Last Update: 12 March, 2009

Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer (1790 – 1861) was an Austrian scholar who proposed, in his Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea wδhrend des Mittelalters (Stuttgart, 1830–1836, 2 pts.) that the modern Greeks were not descended from the ancient ones. According to Fallmerayer, they are the descendants of medieval Slavs who inundated Greece during the Middle Ages, with a further adstratum of Albanians of late medieval and Ottoman times. According to Fallmerayer's thesis:

Das Geschlecht der Hellenen ist in Europa ausgerottet ... Denn auch nicht ein Tropfen edlen und ungemischten Hellenenblutes flieίt in den Adern der christlichen Bevφlkerung des heutigen Griechenlands.
The Hellenic nation has been annihilated in Europe ... Because not even a drop of pure and unmixed Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of today's Greece.

This surprising idea went against the commonly held beliefs of the times. Greeks were called Graeci and its derivatives by western Christians, and Hellenes by themselves, an ethnonym which had slowly lost its pagan connotations centuries before the fall of the eastern Roman Empire. Moreover, the greatest part of the population of the Kingdom of Greece spoke Greek, and it was other Greeks who had re-introduced Hellenic studies into Western Europe before and during the final Fall of Constantinople. How could it be that these Greek-speaking inhabitants of Greece who called themselves Hellenes were no relation to the old ones?
The Fallmerayer thesis has been adequately refuted by experts in history, linguistics, folk studies, etc. It is certain that the persistence of the Hellenic language in Greece is no accident, but required the existence of actual Greek speakers who served as agents of Hellenization for the foreigners that found themselves in their midst. Nonetheless, Fallmerayer's proposition is a biological one, and is often used, even today, by those who wish to deny the physical continuity of the Greek nation. Thus, it is needs to be dealt with and it is best refuted on biological grounds.

Biological Anthropology
Ancestry is best tested by examining the elements of heredity directly, i.e., DNA. However, as genes encode physical characteristics, one can arrive at conclusions about the biological makeup of a population on the basis of observable traits. Biological anthropology by those who have studied modern and ancient Greeks has tended to assert their close relationship (Pontikos, 2007a):

The most complete study of Greek skeletal material from Neolithic to modern times was carried out by American anthropologist J. Lawrence Angel who found that in the early age racial variability in Greece was 7% above average, indicating that the Greeks had multiple origins within the Europid racial family. Angel noted that from the earliest times to the present “racial continuity in Greece is striking.” Buxton who had earlier studied Greek skeletal material and measured modern Greeks, especially in Cyprus, finds that the modern Greeks “possess physical characteristics not differing essentially from those of the former [ancient Greeks].”
The most extensive study of modern Greeks has been carried by the Greek anthropologist Aris N. Poulianos. Poulianos’ study included the collection and study of more than seventy anthropometric measurements from a large sample of thousands of Greeks from different parts of the country. His main conclusions are that both Greeks and their neighboring populations are basically a mixture of Aegeans (a Mediterranean type local to the area) and Epirotics (Dinarics(e)) and are descended from the ancient inhabitants of the lands in which they live.

Nikolaos Xirotiris, more recently, surveyed Greek skeletal material and a number of genetical and anthropometrical studies on modern Greeks. His discoveries were that like in antiquity, the Greek terrain which favors isolation, has led to the formation of local types by micro-evolution. He too concludes racial continuity in Greece, not finding traces of any significant alteration of the Greek racial complex, from prehistory, through classical and medieval, to modern times.

Finally, a more recent statistical comparison of ancient and modern Greek skulls resulted in the discovery of “a remarkable similarity in craniofacial morphology between modern and ancient Greeks.”

Mitochondrial DNA
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is inherited only from the mother and is thus widely used to test the maternal composition of human populations. Mutations that accumulate on human mitochondria define unique clades of the mtDNA phylogeny, and these can be dated using a molecular clock. Thus, populations that are related matrilineally should possess the same types of mtDNA at similar frequencies.
A recent study of mtDNA gathered data from all the existing literature with the goal of determining the problem of Etruscan origins (Achilli et al. 2007). This data can also be used to show the relationships between numerous human populations from West Asia and Europe. The study included separate published samples of 155 Greeks, 202 Cretans, 60 Lemnians, and 42 Rhodians. A principal components plot is shown below:



As can be seen, the Greek samples cluster together with several Italian populations in the middle of the plot. The only Slavic sample in this cluster is that of Bulgarians who are a Balkan population that is geographically closest to the Greeks. The other Slavs from Russia, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Bosnia, and Slovenia cluster together on the top left quadrant of the figure. On the right side of the figure we see a cluster of West Asian populations such as Turks, Armenians, Kurds, Lebanese and Iranians.

We can conclude that the maternal heritage of modern Greeks is distinct from that of Slavs and is similar to that of Italians, a population that is historically devoid of important Slavic immigration. Therefore, mtDNA suggests that the mothers of the Greeks, and indeed the Slavic-speaking Bulgarians, are not significantly influenced by Slavs, but rather reflect a common ancient Greco-Roman or Balkan-Italian heritage predating the Slavs.

Y Chromosomes
Y chromosomes are passed only from father to son and can be used to trace the patrilineal descent of a population. A study of European Y chromosome variation (Roewer et al. 2005) included a sample of Greeks and can thus be used to determine the position of Greeks among other European populations. The dendrogram of Y chromosome variation is shown below:


The authors identify two distinctive clusters in Europe: a Western cluster encompassing mainly populations from the Atlantic and an Eastern cluster encompassing mainly Slavic- and Baltic-speaking populations. It can be easily seen that Greeks do not cluster with Slavs or Albanians as would be expected if they had substantial genetic input from either of these two populations. Rather, they cluster with populations of the Balkans: Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians. The Hungarians represent a pre-Slavic population of the Balkan-Danubian complex which seems to have only a small contribution from the historical Asiatic Magyars. The Romanians are also one of the Balkan populations that maintained its Romance language after the Slavic migrations. Finally, the Bulgarians are geographically close to Greeks and differ from other Slavs who fall uniformly in the "Eastern" cluster.

In Table 2 of this study, the authors perform a pseudo-admixture analysis of the studied populations into Western, Eastern, and Other clusters. It is noteworthy that Greeks have 44% of the Western and 27% of the Eastern cluster. By contrast, Bulgarians have 53% of the Eastern cluster and 28% of the Western one, and Romanians 57/24% respectively, and Albanians 53/34%. Hence, it seems that Greeks are differentiated from their Balkan neighbors in being less "Eastern". In fact the fraction of the Eastern cluster in Greeks is similar to that in West Italians (20%) and Sicilians (18%). This underscores the limited influence of demographic processes taking part north of Greece on the Greek population.

In a different study, (Pericic et al. 2005), the Y chromosomes of Slavs from the Balkans were examined. The authors mention that contemporary Slavic paternal gene pool “is mostly characterized by the predominance of R1a and I1b* (xM26) and scarcity of E3b1 lineages”. By contrast, among Greeks, the combined frequency of haplogroups R1a and I is only around 25% (Pontikos, 2007b) whereas haplogroup E3b1 reaches almost 20%. Indeed, in the Peloponnese (known as Morea in medieval times), which was the centerpiece of Fallmerayer's thesis, haplogroup E3b1 reaches a frequency of around 47% (Semino et al. 2004). It is also interesting that the presence of haplogroup E3b1 among the ancient Greeks has been indirectly suggested by a close match of Pathan Y chromosomes belonging to these lineage with Greek ones, perhaps remnants of Alexander's soldiers in distant Pakistan (Firasat et al. 2007).

A recent study (Rebala et al. 2007) studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland. A significant finding of this study is that: “Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: one encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and two Southern-Slavic populations, and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs.” According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools, and this similarity can be traced to an origin in middle Dnieper basin of the Ukraine.



However, southern Slavic populations such as Serbians, Slav Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Bosnians are separated from the tight cluster of Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by “the contribution of the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs.” Thus, even Slavic populations from the Balkans are partly descended from the pre-Slavic inhabitants.

In a different study, He et al. (2009) have generated a multidimensional scaling plot of European Y-chromosome haplotypes from a very large number of populations. Greeks from Athens are included in the main European cluster, which is separated from the main Slavic cluster (on the right).




Autosomal DNA
Autosomal DNA is inherited biparentally and can thus be used to determine the overall genetic makeup of a population. A recent study (Bauchet et al. 2007) included a sample of Greeks and other European populations. Individuals were subjected to STRUCTURE, a model-based clustering software that estimates their ancestry from a number K of inferred groups. When all global populations were used for clustering, it was revealed that Greeks belong to the Caucasoid clusters, including a green "southern" component that was lacking in the Slavic sample from Poland.


When only European populations were clustered, Greeks were shown to belong mainly to the red "southern" cluster with limited contributions from the light green and blue "northern" clusters.



We can conclude that Greeks have maintained their southern characteristics and were not affected significantly from northern populations such as the Slavs who originated in north-central Europe.

Conclusions
We summarize our conclusions:
Modern Greeks are physically similar to ancient Greeks.
Modern Greeks are contrasted to northern populations, including Slavs and Albanians in different genetic marker systems: mtDNA, Y chromosomes, and autosomal DNA.
Modern Greeks retain characteristics of a southern European population of indigenous, pre-Slavic, Balkan origin.
Both in its crudest form (complete anhilation) and in its weaker form (significant northern admixture) the Fallmerayer thesis has been falsified by anthropological evidence.
It should be noted that some admixture probably did take place, although this was not sufficient to alter the genetic characteristics of the previous inhabitants of Greece. This author does not claim that genetic purity is an ideal for the Greek people, but simply that genetic continuity is established by the evidence.

References
Achilli, A. et al. (2007) Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans. American Journal of Human Genetics (in press).
Bauchet, M. et al. (2007) Measuring European Population Stratification using Microarray Genotype Data. American Journal of Human Genetics (in press).
Firasat, S. et al. (2007) Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan. European Journal of Human Genetics 15, 121–126.
He, M. et al. (2009) Geographical Affinities of the HapMap Samples. PLoS ONE doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0004684
Pericic, M. et al. (2005) High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations. Molecular Biology and Evolution 22(10):1964-1975.
Pontikos, D. (2007a) Racial Type of the Ancient Hellenes. http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/hellenes/
Pontikos, D. (2007b) Greek Y chromosomes. http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/greeknry/
Rebala, K. (2007) Y-STR variation among Slavs: evidence for the Slavic homeland in the middle Dnieper basin. Journal of Human Genetics (in press).
Roewer, L. et al. (2005) Signature of recent historical events in the European Y-chromosomal STR haplotype distribution. Human Genetics 116(4):279-91.
Semino, O. et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. American Journal of Human Genetics, 74:1023-1034


Copyright © 2009 Dienekes Pontikos. All Rights Reserved.
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#139

Post by Phoenix »

elikranon wrote:Anthropological Evidence and the Fallmerayer Thesis
by Dienekes Pontikos
Last Update: 12 March, 2009

Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer (1790 – 1861) was an Austrian scholar who proposed, in his Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea wδhrend des Mittelalters (Stuttgart, 1830–1836, 2 pts.) that the modern Greeks were not descended from the ancient ones. According to Fallmerayer, they are the descendants of medieval Slavs who inundated Greece during the Middle Ages, with a further adstratum of Albanians of late medieval and Ottoman times. According to Fallmerayer's thesis:

Das Geschlecht der Hellenen ist in Europa ausgerottet ... Denn auch nicht ein Tropfen edlen und ungemischten Hellenenblutes flieίt in den Adern der christlichen Bevφlkerung des heutigen Griechenlands.
The Hellenic nation has been annihilated in Europe ... Because not even a drop of pure and unmixed Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of today's Greece.

This surprising idea went against the commonly held beliefs of the times. Greeks were called Graeci and its derivatives by western Christians, and Hellenes by themselves, an ethnonym which had slowly lost its pagan connotations centuries before the fall of the eastern Roman Empire. Moreover, the greatest part of the population of the Kingdom of Greece spoke Greek, and it was other Greeks who had re-introduced Hellenic studies into Western Europe before and during the final Fall of Constantinople. How could it be that these Greek-speaking inhabitants of Greece who called themselves Hellenes were no relation to the old ones?
The Fallmerayer thesis has been adequately refuted by experts in history, linguistics, folk studies, etc. It is certain that the persistence of the Hellenic language in Greece is no accident, but required the existence of actual Greek speakers who served as agents of Hellenization for the foreigners that found themselves in their midst. Nonetheless, Fallmerayer's proposition is a biological one, and is often used, even today, by those who wish to deny the physical continuity of the Greek nation. Thus, it is needs to be dealt with and it is best refuted on biological grounds.

Biological Anthropology
Ancestry is best tested by examining the elements of heredity directly, i.e., DNA. However, as genes encode physical characteristics, one can arrive at conclusions about the biological makeup of a population on the basis of observable traits. Biological anthropology by those who have studied modern and ancient Greeks has tended to assert their close relationship (Pontikos, 2007a):

The most complete study of Greek skeletal material from Neolithic to modern times was carried out by American anthropologist J. Lawrence Angel who found that in the early age racial variability in Greece was 7% above average, indicating that the Greeks had multiple origins within the Europid racial family. Angel noted that from the earliest times to the present “racial continuity in Greece is striking.” Buxton who had earlier studied Greek skeletal material and measured modern Greeks, especially in Cyprus, finds that the modern Greeks “possess physical characteristics not differing essentially from those of the former [ancient Greeks].”
The most extensive study of modern Greeks has been carried by the Greek anthropologist Aris N. Poulianos. Poulianos’ study included the collection and study of more than seventy anthropometric measurements from a large sample of thousands of Greeks from different parts of the country. His main conclusions are that both Greeks and their neighboring populations are basically a mixture of Aegeans (a Mediterranean type local to the area) and Epirotics (Dinarics(e)) and are descended from the ancient inhabitants of the lands in which they live.

Nikolaos Xirotiris, more recently, surveyed Greek skeletal material and a number of genetical and anthropometrical studies on modern Greeks. His discoveries were that like in antiquity, the Greek terrain which favors isolation, has led to the formation of local types by micro-evolution. He too concludes racial continuity in Greece, not finding traces of any significant alteration of the Greek racial complex, from prehistory, through classical and medieval, to modern times.

Finally, a more recent statistical comparison of ancient and modern Greek skulls resulted in the discovery of “a remarkable similarity in craniofacial morphology between modern and ancient Greeks.”

Mitochondrial DNA
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is inherited only from the mother and is thus widely used to test the maternal composition of human populations. Mutations that accumulate on human mitochondria define unique clades of the mtDNA phylogeny, and these can be dated using a molecular clock. Thus, populations that are related matrilineally should possess the same types of mtDNA at similar frequencies.
A recent study of mtDNA gathered data from all the existing literature with the goal of determining the problem of Etruscan origins (Achilli et al. 2007). This data can also be used to show the relationships between numerous human populations from West Asia and Europe. The study included separate published samples of 155 Greeks, 202 Cretans, 60 Lemnians, and 42 Rhodians. A principal components plot is shown below:



As can be seen, the Greek samples cluster together with several Italian populations in the middle of the plot. The only Slavic sample in this cluster is that of Bulgarians who are a Balkan population that is geographically closest to the Greeks. The other Slavs from Russia, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Bosnia, and Slovenia cluster together on the top left quadrant of the figure. On the right side of the figure we see a cluster of West Asian populations such as Turks, Armenians, Kurds, Lebanese and Iranians.

We can conclude that the maternal heritage of modern Greeks is distinct from that of Slavs and is similar to that of Italians, a population that is historically devoid of important Slavic immigration. Therefore, mtDNA suggests that the mothers of the Greeks, and indeed the Slavic-speaking Bulgarians, are not significantly influenced by Slavs, but rather reflect a common ancient Greco-Roman or Balkan-Italian heritage predating the Slavs.

Y Chromosomes
Y chromosomes are passed only from father to son and can be used to trace the patrilineal descent of a population. A study of European Y chromosome variation (Roewer et al. 2005) included a sample of Greeks and can thus be used to determine the position of Greeks among other European populations. The dendrogram of Y chromosome variation is shown below:


The authors identify two distinctive clusters in Europe: a Western cluster encompassing mainly populations from the Atlantic and an Eastern cluster encompassing mainly Slavic- and Baltic-speaking populations. It can be easily seen that Greeks do not cluster with Slavs or Albanians as would be expected if they had substantial genetic input from either of these two populations. Rather, they cluster with populations of the Balkans: Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians. The Hungarians represent a pre-Slavic population of the Balkan-Danubian complex which seems to have only a small contribution from the historical Asiatic Magyars. The Romanians are also one of the Balkan populations that maintained its Romance language after the Slavic migrations. Finally, the Bulgarians are geographically close to Greeks and differ from other Slavs who fall uniformly in the "Eastern" cluster.

In Table 2 of this study, the authors perform a pseudo-admixture analysis of the studied populations into Western, Eastern, and Other clusters. It is noteworthy that Greeks have 44% of the Western and 27% of the Eastern cluster. By contrast, Bulgarians have 53% of the Eastern cluster and 28% of the Western one, and Romanians 57/24% respectively, and Albanians 53/34%. Hence, it seems that Greeks are differentiated from their Balkan neighbors in being less "Eastern". In fact the fraction of the Eastern cluster in Greeks is similar to that in West Italians (20%) and Sicilians (18%). This underscores the limited influence of demographic processes taking part north of Greece on the Greek population.

In a different study, (Pericic et al. 2005), the Y chromosomes of Slavs from the Balkans were examined. The authors mention that contemporary Slavic paternal gene pool “is mostly characterized by the predominance of R1a and I1b* (xM26) and scarcity of E3b1 lineages”. By contrast, among Greeks, the combined frequency of haplogroups R1a and I is only around 25% (Pontikos, 2007b) whereas haplogroup E3b1 reaches almost 20%. Indeed, in the Peloponnese (known as Morea in medieval times), which was the centerpiece of Fallmerayer's thesis, haplogroup E3b1 reaches a frequency of around 47% (Semino et al. 2004). It is also interesting that the presence of haplogroup E3b1 among the ancient Greeks has been indirectly suggested by a close match of Pathan Y chromosomes belonging to these lineage with Greek ones, perhaps remnants of Alexander's soldiers in distant Pakistan (Firasat et al. 2007).

A recent study (Rebala et al. 2007) studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland. A significant finding of this study is that: “Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: one encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and two Southern-Slavic populations, and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs.” According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools, and this similarity can be traced to an origin in middle Dnieper basin of the Ukraine.



However, southern Slavic populations such as Serbians, Slav Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Bosnians are separated from the tight cluster of Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by “the contribution of the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs.” Thus, even Slavic populations from the Balkans are partly descended from the pre-Slavic inhabitants.

In a different study, He et al. (2009) have generated a multidimensional scaling plot of European Y-chromosome haplotypes from a very large number of populations. Greeks from Athens are included in the main European cluster, which is separated from the main Slavic cluster (on the right).




Autosomal DNA
Autosomal DNA is inherited biparentally and can thus be used to determine the overall genetic makeup of a population. A recent study (Bauchet et al. 2007) included a sample of Greeks and other European populations. Individuals were subjected to STRUCTURE, a model-based clustering software that estimates their ancestry from a number K of inferred groups. When all global populations were used for clustering, it was revealed that Greeks belong to the Caucasoid clusters, including a green "southern" component that was lacking in the Slavic sample from Poland.


When only European populations were clustered, Greeks were shown to belong mainly to the red "southern" cluster with limited contributions from the light green and blue "northern" clusters.



We can conclude that Greeks have maintained their southern characteristics and were not affected significantly from northern populations such as the Slavs who originated in north-central Europe.

Conclusions
We summarize our conclusions:
Modern Greeks are physically similar to ancient Greeks.
Modern Greeks are contrasted to northern populations, including Slavs and Albanians in different genetic marker systems: mtDNA, Y chromosomes, and autosomal DNA.
Modern Greeks retain characteristics of a southern European population of indigenous, pre-Slavic, Balkan origin.
Both in its crudest form (complete anhilation) and in its weaker form (significant northern admixture) the Fallmerayer thesis has been falsified by anthropological evidence.
It should be noted that some admixture probably did take place, although this was not sufficient to alter the genetic characteristics of the previous inhabitants of Greece. This author does not claim that genetic purity is an ideal for the Greek people, but simply that genetic continuity is established by the evidence.

References
Achilli, A. et al. (2007) Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans. American Journal of Human Genetics (in press).
Bauchet, M. et al. (2007) Measuring European Population Stratification using Microarray Genotype Data. American Journal of Human Genetics (in press).
Firasat, S. et al. (2007) Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan. European Journal of Human Genetics 15, 121–126.
He, M. et al. (2009) Geographical Affinities of the HapMap Samples. PLoS ONE doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0004684
Pericic, M. et al. (2005) High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations. Molecular Biology and Evolution 22(10):1964-1975.
Pontikos, D. (2007a) Racial Type of the Ancient Hellenes. http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/hellenes/
Pontikos, D. (2007b) Greek Y chromosomes. http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/greeknry/
Rebala, K. (2007) Y-STR variation among Slavs: evidence for the Slavic homeland in the middle Dnieper basin. Journal of Human Genetics (in press).
Roewer, L. et al. (2005) Signature of recent historical events in the European Y-chromosomal STR haplotype distribution. Human Genetics 116(4):279-91.
Semino, O. et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. American Journal of Human Genetics, 74:1023-1034


Copyright © 2009 Dienekes Pontikos. All Rights Reserved.
Do të ishte mirë të na sillje edhe komentet rreth këtij shkrimi që janë poshtë!
Unë e kam lexuar të gjithë bibliografinë që sjell Pontiko dhe jo vetëm kaq! Fatkeqësisht për ju, në shumë raste ai bën një përkthim të gabuar dhe shpesh herë mashtron! Gjithashtu duhet me pasë parasysh se studiuesit ndërkombëtarë nuk e njohin mirë historinë e këtyre trojeve. Ata kur bëjnë studimet gjenetike dhe i ndërthurin me historinë, përdorin atë "zyrtare" si pikë mbështetje. Ai që i njihte nga afër këto troje ishte Falmajeri, por ja që studimi i tij ju djeg.
Tani mua më vjen keq që nazistët ta kenë përdorur këtë studim si pikënisje për me ndëshkuar gjatë LIIB popullsinë, por e vërteta është e vërtetë. Nuk të bën pak përshtypje që deri dje avanitasit nuk ekzistonin në Greqi?! Ndërsa sot ata po na dalin Dorët Modern! Dhe e gjitha kjo nga vetë ata që u përpoqen me e zhduk kulturën e tyre. Më duket se po kuptoni se kultura e lashtë nuk është ajo pontikase, por ajo që mbajnë këta arbërorë!
Megjithatë, le t'i kthehemi shkrimit të Pontikos!
Modern Greeks are contrasted to northern populations, including Slavs and Albanians in different genetic marker systems: mtDNA, Y chromosomes, and autosomal DNA.
Modern Greeks retain characteristics of a southern European population of indigenous, pre-Slavic, Balkan origin.
Both in its crudest form (complete anhilation) and in its weaker form (significant northern admixture) the Fallmerayer thesis has been falsified by anthropological evidence.
It should be noted that some admixture probably did take place, although this was not sufficient to alter the genetic characteristics of the previous inhabitants of Greece. This author does not claim that genetic purity is an ideal for the Greek people, but simply that genetic continuity is established by the evidence.
Ja t'i shohim pak këto përfundime!
Ky këtu është një studim i botuar në mars të 2010!
ORIGINAL ARTICLE
Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent
Gianmarco Ferri1 , Sergio Tofanelli2, Milena Alù1, Luca Taglioli2, Erjon Radheshi1, Beatrice Corradini1, Giorgio Paoli2, Cristian Capelli3 and Giovanni Beduschi1
http://www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/
[quoteem]"Në këtë studim shumë të rëndësishëm tregohet se Gegët dhe Toskët gjenetikisht janë shumë të afërt me njeri tjetrin. Tek gegët shikohet se kanë qënë më të mbyllur krahasuar me Toskët![/quoteem]
The Gheg profile closely resembles the Tosk one for haplogroup composition and level of H1 introgression (0.6%). However, haplotype diversity values and the skewed E1b1b1-M35 and I-M170 haplogroup frequencies suggest a higher degree of reproductive isolation than in Tosks, a condition that might also explain the partially marginal position of the Ghegs in Y-SNP-based MDS plots.
Almost all distance values within and between Albanians reached statistical significance (Table S2) except between the Tosks and their closest Balkan neighbours (Greek, Macedonians, Bulgarians).
Image
Fig. 3 MDS analysis based on the frequencies of the Y chromosome haplogroups E-M35, G-M201, H-M69, I-M170, J1-M267, J2-M172, K*-M9, P-P27 and R-M17 in the examined Albanians and other European populations (stress index 0.1225, p<0.01 [56])
Image
Fig. 1 Phylogenetic tree of the Y chromosome according to the YCC with SNP mutations frequencies of the Albanian populations analysed
Tani lind pyetja kur Gegët janë të njejtë me Toskët dhe Toskët janë gati të njejtë me "Grekërit", ku shkojnë këto përfundimet e Pontikos?
elikranon
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#140

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Phoenix wrote: Ai që i njihte nga afër këto troje ishte Falmajeri, por ja që studimi i tij ju djeg.
Fallmerayer bashkeatdhetar i Meternyh ishte, keshtu qe s`me bejne dhe shume cudi cfare ka shkruar. Austriaket kane qene armiqte me te medhenj (dhe ndoshta te vetmit) ne Evrope te kryengritjes greke.
Persa u perket hollesive, as hollesite e artikullit qe postova nuk i lexova.
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#141

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Pas kaq komentesh serioze eshte koha te qeshim pak, te relaksohemi.
Nuk e dija cila ishte kjo Elena Kocaqi dhe printova ne YT.
O sa u gajasa!
O sa ma rregulloj diten!
Une do i thosha te jap leksione te tilla ne tere universitetet e botes,por hyrja ne salle te jete me bilete. Do mbledh shume para se ben estrade te mire.
Eshte koha te qeshni dhe ju...
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet? ... gp4EsGsTNU
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#142

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elikranon
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#143

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Mallakastrioti
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#144

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elikranon wrote:Pas kaq komentesh serioze eshte koha te qeshim pak, te relaksohemi.
Nuk e dija cila ishte kjo Elena Kocaqi dhe printova ne YT.
O sa u gajasa!
O sa ma rregulloj diten!
Une do i thosha te jap leksione te tilla ne tere universitetet e botes,por hyrja ne salle te jete me bilete. Do mbledh shume para se ben estrade te mire.
Eshte koha te qeshni dhe ju...
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet? ... gp4EsGsTNU
Pse te duket çudi ore elikranon?Ti dhe ca si ty thoni qe jeni helene te lashte kur etnikisht dihet qe jeni Zinzare.
pastaj zonja sjell deshmi dhe ato qe quhen fakte historiko-gjuhesore...ti çfare sjell te provosh qe je helen i lashte?...asgje.

Degjo tani te te su po kati i fundit une tija ore...

Ne kohe te lashta,dilnin disa me teza disi te marra e thoshin:"Toka eshte e rrumbullaket e rrotullohet rreth diellit".Tani qe kjo ka qene dhe mbetet nje blasfemi e herezi per ultraortodoksomuhamedanoiranianet greke,dihet qe eshte nje blasfem,se ndryshe si shpjegohet qe ju Zinzaret e vorijuglindjeaepirosit ketej nga kufiri shqiptar e kini shesh punen e andej nga kufiri jugperendimorepirotanograikoian vini verdalle e nuk dini nga shkoni?

ja molloisme kete pune muan pshatarit te malit qe s'ha pyke fare nga keto dhulja fare ore.
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#145

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elikranon,doja te te lutesha te na i perktheje pak kete tekstin ketu.Flet per historine e luftetareve tuaj qe jane "trima te rralle"...çfare thote artikulli,po beheni gati ta ndezim si qemoti apo si perhere lehni si qente kot?

http://borioipirotis.blogspot.com/2010/ ... t_530.html
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#146

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elikranon wrote: Persa u perket hollesive, as hollesite e artikullit qe postova nuk i lexova.
Unë e kuptoj se qellimi juaj është të na ndriçoni me padijen tuaj, por kësisoj talljesh do të ishte mirë me i bërë në ndonjë kafene ose atje ku ju paguajnë "pensionin"!
Kola i madh ndër të tjera si cilësi të shqiptarëve ka përcaktuar dhe LËVËNDËRINË!
Kështu që vazhdoni derisa administratorët ta cilësojnë të arsyeshme largimin tuaj nga ky forum!
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#147

Post by Mallakastrioti »

Phoenix wrote:
elikranon wrote: Persa u perket hollesive, as hollesite e artikullit qe postova nuk i lexova.
Unë e kuptoj se qellimi juaj është të na ndriçoni me padijen tuaj, por kësisoj talljesh do të ishte mirë me i bërë në ndonjë kafene ose atje ku ju paguajnë "pensionin"!
Kola i madh ndër të tjera si cilësi të shqiptarëve ka përcaktuar dhe LËVËNDËRINË!
Kështu që vazhdoni derisa administratorët ta cilësojnë të arsyeshme largimin tuaj nga ky forum!
Jo Phoenix,nuk e largojme sepse kemi nevoje per urrejtjen qe kane ndaj nesh.Duhet ligesia e tyre qe te mbaje gjalle kujtesen tone qe te dime çdo çast se me çfare individesh kemi te bejme.
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#148

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Mallakastrioti wrote:elikranon,doja te te lutesha te na i perktheje pak kete tekstin ketu.Flet per historine e luftetareve tuaj qe jane "trima te rralle"...çfare thote artikulli,po beheni gati ta ndezim si qemoti apo si perhere lehni si qente kot?

http://borioipirotis.blogspot.com/2010/ ... t_530.html
MABH (mavi) ishte nje organizate qe u krijua ne vitet e WWII ne minoritet. Ishte e spektrit te djathte (dmth i takon kategorise se Ballit Kombetar apo EDES-it grek). Kjo organizate qe ne fillim gjeti perballe Lefter Talon dhe forcat e majta minoritare (jane te njohura tek ne debatet e ashpra te Lefter Talos me ta ndersa shkonte dhe u prishte mbledhjet). Nuk pati ndonje reputacion te madh ne minoritet, keshtu qe u shperbe shpejt dhe pjesetaret e pakte te saj iu bashkuan forcave te Zerves ne Greqi. Kurse minoritaret u renditen masivisht me forcat antifashiste shqiptare.
Ne fund te artikullit shkruan se edhe ata qe shkaktuan incidentin e Peskopise ne Gjirokaster me 1994 ishin nje organizate qe kishte te njejtin emer MABH, por nuk dihet gjer me sot nese ka ndonje lidhje me MABH te 1943, apo eshte thjesht synonimi.
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#149

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Po mire ore...tani keta te sormit...duan te na çlirojne ne nga vetvetja apo si eshte halli?Po kerkojne te mbulojne diellin me shoshe e?Po sikur dihet qe keta cubat e WWII vrane e theren shume andej nga Jugu...apo mos ishin bashkpuntor te italo-shqiptareve ata?

Si thua elikranon...me mire dredharak apo me te drejten?Keta kerkojne te rehabilitojne vrasesa dhe cuba e sipas mendimit tend kemi te drejte ne shqipot te nxehemi apo jo?
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#150

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Mallakastrioti wrote:Po mire ore...tani keta te sormit...duan te na çlirojne ne nga vetvetja apo si eshte halli?Po kerkojne te mbulojne diellin me shoshe e?Po sikur dihet qe keta cubat e WWII vrane e theren shume andej nga Jugu...apo mos ishin bashkpuntor te italo-shqiptareve ata?

Si thua elikranon...me mire dredharak apo me te drejten?Keta kerkojne te rehabilitojne vrasesa dhe cuba e sipas mendimit tend kemi te drejte ne shqipot te nxehemi apo jo?
Qe ta sqaroj se je i keqinformuar. Ajo organizate nuk pati jete, u shperbe qe ne fillimet e saj. Vetem ca mbledhje organizimi beri, nje ne Dropull, nje ne Memoraq, dhe aq. Dhe faktori kryesor i deshtimit te tyre ishte Lefter Talo me njerezit e tij qe nuk i la rehat.
Per krimet qe thua me thuaj me konkretisht, se une nuk kam degjuar per histori te tilla.
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