"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

Këtu mund të flisni mbi historinë tonë duke sjellë fakte historike për ndriçimin e asaj pjese të historisë mbi të cilen ka rënë harresa e kohës dhe e njerëzve.

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#31

Post by Zeus10 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:32 am

Sturmgewehr wrote:ndonje Sqarim reth kesaj?????


The Byzantine historian Michael Ataliota recorded the migration of
Albanians into the region of today's Albania around 1043 AD when a few
thousands of Byzantine mercenaries and their families, who were
previously brought as Arabian slaves from the Caucasus to Sicily, were
settled on the other side of the Adriatic Sea.

(Michael Attaliota: Historia, Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis)


disa qe meren me propagand anti Shqiptare thaun se shqiptaret i kan sjell per her te par ne Ballkan ne 1043 AD prej Kafkazit kete fakt e poston cdo i treti Grek ose Slavv qe din gjysmen e alfabetit edhe nuk kam se kush te ma sqaroje ceshtjen e kesaj????


poashtu edhe kjo:

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Zeus10 Mendimi jot reth kesaj qe kam postuar une, reth asaj punes se Kavkazit nepermjet sicilis edhe keti dokumenti qe nuk e mar vesh.
Ky i meposhtmi eshte teksti, ku thote ai qe shqiptaret ishin skllever arabe nga kaukazi?

1038, 1042, 1078
Michael Attaleiates:
The First Byzantine References

Michael Attaleiates was a Byzantine lawyer and historian who rose to high office under the emperors Romanus IV (r. 1067-1071) and Michael VII (r. 1071-1078). His 'History', covering the years 1034-1079, is a largely eyewitnessed account of political and military events in the Byzantine Empire. It was during this period that the Byzantine Greeks first took note of the Albanians as a people.
When the Emperor Michael (1), who passed away in piety and whose home is known to have been the province of Paphlagonia, took up the sceptre of the Byzantine Empire, the Agarene (2) people in Sicily in the West were defeated by Byzantine naval and land forces.
And had not the well-known George Maniakes, who had been entrusted with the general command, been eliminated on the slanderous accusation that he was hungry for power, and had not the military command of the war been transferred to others, that large and renowned island, blessed with large cities knowing no lack of precious goods, would still be under Byzantine control. Now, however, jealousy has destroyed not only the man and his endeavours, but also that enormous undertaking (3). For when subsequent commanders made base and shameful plans and decisions, not only was the island lost to Byzantium, but also the greater part of the army. Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command against their leaders...
Constantine IX Monomachos (4) proved to be more benevolent on the imperial throne than his predecessor. He conveyed imperial honours and gifts to almost everyone with ambition, and delighted his subjects. Suddenly storm clouds gathered in the West and threatened him with nothing less than destruction and expulsion from the throne. The aforementioned George with the surname Maniakes, thirsting for blood, began an uprising in the Italian part of the Empire with Byzantine and Albanian soldiers there, being offended because the emperor had shown him a lack of respect and fearing the emperor in view of previous hostilities. He caused great turmoil in the rest of the army opposing him and took it over. After having set up his camp at a two days' march from Thessalonika, he made his attack on the imperial camp in the evening...
When this had taken place and the usurpers had gradually calmed down, another disaster began to take its course and to spread like a poisonous weed intent on destroying the crops. The danger came from the city of Epidamnus (Durrës). The Protoprohedros Duke Basiliakes, who had been sent there by the emperor, having succeeded in avoiding Bryennius and withdrawing from Adrianopole, took over Durrës and assembled an army there from all the surrounding regions. By soliciting support for his side by means of substantial gifts, he succeeded in having the Franks enter his territory from Italy and attempted to make use of them for his side. By various pretences and means, he collected money from everyone under his order and command, set up a list and used as a pretext for this arms buildup the fact that he intended to attack Bryennius as a renegade. Once he had ensured that he had indeed assembled a large army and forces fit for action, composed of Byzantine Greeks, Bulgarians and Albanians and of his own soldiers, he set off and hastened to Thessalonika...
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#32

Post by Picasso` » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:46 pm

Ku Pliny the elder, i gjen Olbonenset?

Mundet te gjindet harte ose dokument autentik?

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#33

Post by Picasso` » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:48 pm

"Arsiae gens Liburnorum iungitur usque ad flumen Titium. Pars eius fuere Mentores, Himani, Encheleae, Bulini et quos Callimachus Peucetios appellat, nunc totum uno nomine Illyricum vocatur generatim. Populorum pauca effatu digna aut facilia nomina. Conventum Scardonitanum petunt Iapudes et Liburnorum civitates XIIII, ex quibus Lacinienses, Stulpinos, Burnistas, Olbonenses nominare non pigeat. Ius Italicum habent ex eo conventu Alutae, Flanates, a quibus sinus nominatur, Lopsi, Varvarini inmunesque Asseriates, et ex insulis Fertinates, Curictae."

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/..._Elder/3*.html

Liburnia, nuk gjindet ne Kroacine e sotme?

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#34

Post by IllyriankinG » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:56 pm

Sturmgewehr wrote:a ka Mundesi nje Sqarim te paster se si ka erdhur emri qe sot e kemi ne SHQIPTAR kurse ne vet e dim se para shum kohe ose ne Antikitet kan Qen Iliret si Kultur pastaj ne Themi se Vime prej Arbanoi kurse Historia thote Albanoi pra a eshte Arbanoi apo Albanoi edhe prej ku Vjen Emri SHJQIPTAR mendoj tranzicioni prej Ilir ----> Arbanoi ----> Shqiptar.

Faleminderit ;)
Nga të gjitha varjantet e transmetuara deri më sot, mbi emrin Shqipëri dhe Shqiptar, unë personalisht shoh si më të logjikshmin atë të prejardhjes së Shqipe-ri nga po i njëjti emër i përdorur qysh nga kohët para Ilirëve.
Epir - Ipir
Edhe sot në trevat e Toskërisë, përdoret akoma i njëjti ermër për Shqipet, në të njëjtën trajtë "IPE"
IPE si rrënjë e fjalës Ipir.
Për ta ilustruar këtë, unë do të sillja rastin e Prometeut në Iliadë, ku si ndëshkim u lidh nga vet Zeusi në një shkëmb në malet e larta të Epirit, dhe i dërgoi shqiponjën e cila ja coptoi mëlçinë dhe zemrën...
Deri vonë kur përmëndej Epiri në hartat e kohës, nënkuptohej Shqipëria.

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#35

Post by Socio » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:26 am

Picasso` wrote:Ku Pliny the elder, i gjen Olbonenset?

Mundet te gjindet harte ose dokument autentik?

CHAP. XXI.
Illyricum.
THE NATION OF THE Liburnians joineth unto Arsia, even as farre as the river Titius. a part thereof were the Mentores, Hymani, Encheleæ, Dudini, and those whome Callimachus nameth Pucetiæ. Now, the whole in generall is called by one name, Illyricum. The names of the nations are few of them either worthie or easie to bee spoken. As for the judiciall courts of Assises at Scordona (1), the Iapides and foureteene States besides of the Liburnians resort unto. Of which it greeveth me not to name the Lacininans, Stulpinians, Burnistes and Albonenses.

CHAP. XXII.
Liburnia.
THE END OF LIBURNIA and beginning of Dalmatia is Scordona, which frontier towne is twelve miles from the sea, situate upon the said river Titius. Then followeth the auncient countrey of the Tariotes, and the castle Tariota, the Promontorie Diomedis, or, as some would have it, the demie Island Hyllis, taking in circuit a hundred miles.
Pliny the Elder, 'The natural history' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny3.html








Ref:

(1) Scodrona is the ancient Skradin, a town near Sibenik ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skradin )

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#36

Post by Socio » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:48 am

Picasso` wrote:Liburnia, nuk gjindet ne Kroacine e sotme?
Natyrisht se Liburnia ka qene e shtrire ne Kroacine e sotme

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#37

Post by Picasso` » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:52 am

Nuk i gjen Pliny keta ne Itali?

Roma est, Antipolis quod nunc Ianiculum in parte Romae, Antemnae, Camerium, Collatia, Amitinum, Norbe, Sulmo,et cum iis carnem in monte Albano soliti accipere populi Albenses: Albani...

Aq shum Albanese...

Ku jane te postuara hartat nga Ptolomeu dhe Poliby, ku te dy e permendin dhe e gjejn Albanoi ne Shqiperi?

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#38

Post by Socio » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:04 am

Picasso` wrote:Nuk i gjen Pliny keta ne Itali?

Roma est, Antipolis quod nunc Ianiculum in parte Romae, Antemnae, Camerium, Collatia, Amitinum, Norbe, Sulmo,et cum iis carnem in monte Albano soliti accipere populi Albenses: Albani...

Aq shum Albanese...

Pliny ne vepren e tij 'Natural history', qe e ke ne postin e mesiperm, permend Albanet, te paret e popullit te Romes; Albanet e tjere te Kaukazit, si dhe Albonenses te Ballkanit qe ishin Ilir, si ne citimin e larte-permendur timin.
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#39

Post by Picasso` » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:07 am

Socio wrote:
Picasso` wrote:Nuk i gjen Pliny keta ne Itali?

Roma est, Antipolis quod nunc Ianiculum in parte Romae, Antemnae, Camerium, Collatia, Amitinum, Norbe, Sulmo,et cum iis carnem in monte Albano soliti accipere populi Albenses: Albani...

Aq shum Albanese...

Pliny ne vepren e tij 'Natural history', qe e ke ne postin e mesiperm, permend Albanet, te paret e popullit te Romes; Albanet e tjere te Kaukazit, si dhe Albonenses te Ballkanit qe ishin Ilir, si ne citimin e larte-permendur timin.
Po mire socio, po nuk i gjen ata Albanenses ne Liburni(kroaci)? Se un ashtu e kuptoj, dhe mund ta lexoj. Me fal ne qoft se jam i paaft te mundem ta percepoj sic duhet.

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#40

Post by Socio » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:22 am

Picasso` wrote:
Socio wrote:
Picasso` wrote:Nuk i gjen Pliny keta ne Itali?

Roma est, Antipolis quod nunc Ianiculum in parte Romae, Antemnae, Camerium, Collatia, Amitinum, Norbe, Sulmo,et cum iis carnem in monte Albano soliti accipere populi Albenses: Albani...

Aq shum Albanese...

Pliny ne vepren e tij 'Natural history', qe e ke ne postin e mesiperm, permend Albanet, te paret e popullit te Romes; Albanet e tjere te Kaukazit, si dhe Albonenses te Ballkanit qe ishin Ilir, si ne citimin e larte-permendur timin.
Po mire socio, po nuk i gjen ata Albanenses ne Liburni(kroaci)? Se un ashtu e kuptoj, dhe mund ta lexoj. Me fal ne qoft se jam i paaft te mundem ta percepoj sic duhet.
Pliny thote ne citimin e larte-permendur se Albonensit qe ishin ilire dhe jetonin ne Iliricum mblidheshin per te kuvenduar ne Scadrona, qe eshte afer Shibenikut te sotem, . Qyteti ishte ne kufi mes liburnise dhe Dalmacise.
Last edited by Socio on Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#41

Post by Picasso` » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:32 am

Me duket se ne nje vend njeher pash nje citim ku permendet se ne Kroaci ne Raguze, eshte folur shqip. Me duket se ishte nje fragment i shekullit te 13.

Domethene se Pliny Albanenset i gjen diku nga Kroacija.

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#42

Post by Socio » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:42 am

Picasso` wrote:Domethene se Pliny Albanenset i gjen diku nga Kroacija.
Nuk thote saktesisht se ku ne Iliri, por permend qytetin ku mblidhen Albanensit bashke me Liburnet etj per kuvendim. Ky qytet thote Pliny quhet Scardona qe eshte afer Shibenikut ne Kroaci.
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#43

Post by Picasso` » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:55 pm

Tue germuar neper internet dhe faqet me dokumente historike, gjeta nje dokument i perkthyer ne gjuhen (sllavo)Maqedone, nga Despoti Bizantin, Nikifor Grigora, ku i permend Iliret ne shekullin e 14, dhe vendin e tyre e gjen si fqinj te Maqedonasve.
По ова акција на Андроник II Каталонците се нашле во опасност од глад. Исто така стравувале «да не се обединат Илирите, Трибалите, Акарнанците и Тесалијците кои биле соседни племиња на Ромеите што живееле во Македонија»
Pas ketij akcioni te Andronik 2, Katalonet jan gjetur ne rrezik nga uria. Gjithashtu, kan qen te friksuar se mos bashkohen ILIRET, tribalet, Akadnancet dhe Thesalet qe kan qene fise fqinje te Romejve qe kan jetuar ne Maqedoni.
само што наполнил 25 години, царот го испратил за заповедник и управник на една област во Македонија и тоа онаа што ги има Илирите [19] за најблиски соседи

Sa ka mbushur 25 vjet, mbreti e ka derguar si urdherues dhe drejtues ne nje krahine ne Maqedoni edhe mu atje ku i ka ILIRET si fqinje me te afert.


Dhe ketu e japin sqarimin perkethyesit te ketij dokumenti, pra Sllavet:
Се однесува на населението што живеело во денешна Албанија, бидејќи Н. Григора секогаш за жителите на Балканот употребува архаични термини (Трибали за Србите, Мизи за Бугарите и сл.)
Behet fjale per popullsi qe ka jetuar ne Shqiperine e sotme, meqenese Nikifor Grigora xhdo her per popujt e Ballkanit sherben termine arkaite (Tribal per Serbet, Mizet si Bullgar etj.)

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#44

Post by Picasso` » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:13 pm

Kemi dokumente me te vjetra se ata te shekullit te 18 per perkatesine Shqiptare te EPIRIT?

Edhe per perkatesine e Muzakajve, te cilet me ne fund i ben VLLEH, si e si te mos jen shqiptar.

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#45

Post by ALBPelasgian » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:36 pm

Picasso` wrote:Kemi dokumente me te vjetra se ata te shekullit te 18 per perkatesine Shqiptare te EPIRIT?
Sa te duash... -itsok-
Ne temen qe kam hapur per Perkatesia Shqiptare e Epirit mund te gjesh pjese online te librit te Sherif Delvines. Aty autori i ka stivuar me rradhe kronologjikisht kronikanet bizantine por edhe burime te tjera latine qe deshmojne per Shqiptaresine e Epirit.
Ja nje e tille psh:
8.Joanis Leunclavi

Dëshmi e rëndësishme historike e Joanis Leunclavit Leunclavius në "Historiae muslimanae turcorum", libri XVII, Francofurti, 1591, na jep të dhëna të sakta për epirotët.

Po e ilustrojmë këtë me një paragraf të faqes 847: "Arbanosi i Turqisë është krahina të cilën grekët tani e quajnë Albania, nga ky rrjedh emri Albaneses, që sot përdoret rëndom. Të vjetrit i thonë Ipiros, bashkëkohësit Epirus. Banorët e këtij (Epirit), ashtu si dhe ata të Moresë, që tani është e mbushur me epirotë, në gjuhën e përditshme quhen nga turqit arnautlerë.
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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