"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

Këtu mund të flisni mbi historinë tonë duke sjellë fakte historike për ndriçimin e asaj pjese të historisë mbi të cilen ka rënë harresa e kohës dhe e njerëzve.

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#526

Post by erix77 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:34 pm

cfare eshte kjo "Kavo-la (the Illyrian cap)"?
Dhe e bëmë me besa besën ja të rrojmë ja të vdesëm!

Ishte thënë prej Zotit që të nderohen armët e Shqipërisë!

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#527

Post by ALBPelasgian » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:52 pm

erix77 wrote:cfare eshte kjo "Kavo-la (the Illyrian cap)"?
Eshte Kausia (kapela tipike ilire). Kerkoj falje qe teksti vende-vende eshte ca i coroditur, per shkak se kur e konvertova permes google.books faqen e skanuar ne tekst, atehere ne plot raste nuk percohet si duhet. Ne origjinal eshte: Image

http://books.google.com/books?id=n-fVAA ... ap&f=false
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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#528

Post by Mallakastrioti » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:22 pm

Iliro-traket. Fjale te perbashketa sipas studiuesit K. Jeriçek:

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#529

Post by Arbëri » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:24 pm

Shqiptarët banorët origjinalë të Ballkanit, ata janë Ilirët që kanë banuar në rajon që para grekëve të lashtë

Titulli: One Europe, many nations: a historical dictionary of European national groups
Autori: James Minahan
Botues: Greenwood Publishing Group, 2000
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Albanians are among the most ancient ethnic groups in Southeastern Europe, calling themselves Shiptars or Shqipetars (Sons of the Eagle). They are thought to be the descendent from ancient Illyrian and Thracian peoples who settled the Balkan Penisula long before the Greeks.


Considered the original inhabitants of the Balkan Penisula, the Albanians have inhabited the region since before the rise of the ancient Greeks. Illyrian culture is believed to have evolved from the Stone Age, and to have flourished in the region toward the biginning of the Bronze Age,about 2000 B.C.

... Ancient Illyria and Epirus were known to the people of the Mediterranean.

pp. 29-30
Shqiptarët janë ndër grupet etnik më të lashtë në Europën juglindore, duke e quajtur veten Shqiptar (Bijtë e Shqiponjës). Ata mendohet të jenë pasardhës të ilirëve dhe trakëve të lashtë, popullsi e cila u vendos në Gadishullin Ballkanik shumë më para grekëve.

Të konsideruar banorët origjinalë të Gadishullit Ballkanik, shqiptarët kanë banuar në rajon që para daljes së grekëve të lashtë. Kultura ilire besohet të ketë evoluar nga Epoka e Gurit, dhe të ketë lulëzuar në Epokën e Bronzit, rreth 2000 p.e.s.

... Iliria e lashtë dhe Epiri ishin të njohura, për njerëzit e Mesdheut.

f. 29-30
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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#530

Post by Arbëri » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:44 pm

Për Helenët ç’duhet thënë?
Fizikisht,shqiptari modern i afrohet më shumë tipit të grekut të vjetër,
e nuk ka asgjë mongole te ai..

(Marre nga Thënie për shqiptarët, FB )
Titulli: The contemporary review, Volume 12
Pjesë nga: Tree and serpent warship; or, Illustrations Mythology and Art in India, in the First and Fourth Centuries after Christ. By James Fergusson, F.R.S., M.R.A.S. London: W.H. Allen&Co. 1869
Botues: A. Strahan, 1869
Nuk kemi as dhe një bazë të sigurt për të gjurmuar të ashtuquajturin adhurim të gjarprit në Greqinë e vjetër, si një element turanian apo mongol. Është shumë e mundshme, por gjithsesi larg nga gjasat, që Pellazgët ishin me prejardhje Turaniane; por emri i tyre, traditat e tyre, reliket, e çdo gjë që ne dimë për strukturën e tyre fizike, tregojnë të njëjtën gjë si për një burim arian, qoftë ky burim në luginën e Gangut, apo në vendlindjen hershme të Keltëve, apo në mes të shkëmbinjve të Kaukazit legjendar. Danajt, në mënyrë të dukshme rrugëtuan nga India në Greqi nëpërmjet Egjiptit, në qoftë se vlerësojmë filologjinë dhe legjendat greke. Për Helenët ç’duhet thënë? Fizikisht, shqiptari modern i afrohet më shumë tipit të grekut të vjetër, dhe nuk ka asgjë mongole te ai.
Nor have we any surer ground for tracing the so-called serpent worship of old Greece to a Turanian or Mongolian element. It is just possible, however far from likely, that the Pelasgi were of Turanian birth; but their name, their traditions, relics, all we know of their physical structure, alike point to an Aryan source, whether that source lay in the valley of the Ganges, or in the primeval birthplace of the Celts, or among the cliffs of the fabled Caucasus. The Danai evidently made their way from India into Greece through Egypt, if philology and Greek legend are of any worth. Of the Hellenes what need to speak ? The modern Albanian comes physically nearest to the old Greek type, and there is nothing of the Mongol about him.

The builders of the old Cyclopean monuments may have been Celts, Tuscans, what you will—there is no ground whatever for calling them Turanians in any scientific meaning of the term. Neither from the historic nor the legendary ages of old Greece can we summon forth any tangible evidence of a Turanian element underlying the lowermost of its Aryan strata. Language, history, legend, archaeology, all equally fail to clear up the darkness which enshrouds the first beginnings of human life, not in Greece only, but all the world over.
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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#531

Post by Arbëri » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:51 pm

En, një Zot i lashtë Ilir,
emri i të cilit ka mbetur në fjalën shqipe për ditën e Enjte



( Marre nga Thënie për shqiptarët, FB )
Titulli: The Routledge dictionary of gods and goddesses, devils and demons
Routledge dictionaries
Autori: Manfred Lurker
Botues: Routledge, 2004
Edition 2, illustrated, reissue, reprint
Botimi i parë, 1984


Enj
Një Zot i lashtë Ilir, emri i të cilit ka mbetur në fjalën shqipe për ditën e Enjte. Me ardhjen e Kirishtërimit, Enj-it i veshën tipare demoni.


En
An Old Illyrian god whose name lives on in the Albanian word for Thursday. With the coming of Christianity, En was demoted to demonic status.

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Manfred Lurker was, from 1968 to 1980, editor of the Bibliography of Symbolism, Iconography and Mythology. Since 1974 he has been deputy chairman of the Symbolism Research Group in Salzburg. He has written widely on the history of religion, mainly from the point of view of symbolism, and his publications include Dictionary of Symbolism (3rd edition, 1985), The Gods and Symbols of the Ancient Egyptians (3rd edition, 1977; English edition, 1980) and Dictionary of Biblical Images and Symbols (2nd edition, 1978).
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“Nëse doni të zbuloni historinë para Krishtit dhe
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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#532

Post by Arbëri » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:50 pm

Romë-Iliri, 150 vjet luftë; kur udhëheqësi ilir Bato u dorëzua,
gratë ilire duke mbajtur fëmijët e tyre, u hodhën vetë në zjarr

Titulli: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bradt Travel Guide Bosnia & Herzegovina; Bradt Guides
Autori: Tim Clancy
Botues: Bradt Travel Guides, 2007
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Baton (Bato) is a Illyrian-Albanian given name for males.
Baton (Bato) is the name of a Dardanian king in the 4th century BC.
Baton (Bato) is the name of two of three leaders of the Illyrian uprising against the Romans in Pannonia in 6 AD.
Romakët sulmuan në 229 p.e.s, duke zënë fillimisht ishujt dhe duke fundosur flotën ilire. Në vitin 168 p.e.s, mbreti i famshëm Gent, u mund, dhe kjo i dha romakëve një bastion mbi tokën ilire. Megjithatë, në brendësi, fiset e Ilirisë bënë një qëndresë të egër të egër dhe komandantëve më të zotë romakë dhe forcave të tyre ushtarake iu deshën një shekull e gjysmë që të mposhtnin fiset kryelartë. Së fundi, nga 35-33 BC, nën komandën e drejtpërdrejtë të perandorit Oktavian, ushtria romake filloi një sulm të madh, i cili - pasi u plagos rëndë vetë perandori nga një sulm në gueril - detyroi fisin e Dalmatëve që të dorëzohej. Fiset bregdetare, u pushtuan përgjithësisht prej përmasës së madhe të ushtrisë romake.
Në “betejën mbretërore” të fundit, për territoret e brendshme të mbajtura nga ana e fiseve ilire, në atë që është zemra e Bosnjës së sotme, besëlidhja e fiseve krijoi atë që njihet si Kryengritja e Batove. Dy fise të mëdha ilire u bashkuan për tu rezistuar pushtuesve. Të trembur nga zërat se kishte 800.000 kryengritës, përfshirë edhe 200.000 luftëtarë të elitës e 9.000 kalorës, Perandori Augustus dërgoi dy nga komandantët e tij më të aftë, Tiberius dhe Germanicus, për të mposhtur dhe pushtuar ilirët krenarë dhe kokëfortë. Luftimet vazhduan për vite me rradhë, me fitore e mposhtje nga të dyja palët. Qëndresa e fundit ilire që ra, ishte fortesa në Vranduk pranë qytetit boshnjak qendror të Zenicës. Sipas shënimeve romake, kur udhëheqësi ilir Bato u dorëzua, gratë ilire, duke mbajtur fëmijët e tyre, u hodhën vetë në zjarr, në vend që të kapeshin e të skllavëroheshin. Romakët i përfshinë dy provincat ilire të Pannonias dhe Dalmacisë në perandorinë e tyre. Disa mbetje tejet të izoluara të fiseve ilire mbijetuan dhe ndoshta u asimiluan përfundimisht me Sllavët, kur këta erdhën në shekullin e 7-të.
Ka ende disa vende arkeologjike që tregojnë gjurmët e qytetërimit ilir në Bosnje dhe Hercegovinë. Shumë prej fortifikimeve ilire u zgjeruan nga romakët dhe më vonë nga aristokracia boshnjake e osmanët. Hulumtimet e rej, gjithsesi, kanë zbuluar një aspekt interesant të Ilirisë. Në Vranduk në Bosnjen qendrore, në Blagaj pranë lumit Buna në Hercegovinë dhe në muret ciklopike në Osanici pranë Stolac, gjetjet tregojnë se kultura e antikitetit erdhi kohë përpara romakëve, me shumë të ngjarë në formën helenistike. Osanici ishte atdheu i fisit Daorsi dhe gjetjet arkeologjike të kohëve të fundit tregojnë për një lidhje të shekullit të 3 p.e.s me një zgjerim verior të qytetërimit të madh helenistik.
Pjesa më e madhe e kulturës ilire do të mbetet përgjithmonë një mister, por askush nuk mund të mohojë ndikimin shpirtërore dhe kulturor që ajo ka pasur, madje edhe për gati dy mijëvjeçarë pas zhdukjes së tyre.


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@Thënie për shqiptarët
“Nëse doni të zbuloni historinë para Krishtit dhe
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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#533

Post by CERMENIKASI » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:08 am

"Les Macédoniens marchaient à la charge en chantant l'hymne du combat;et ils ont légué aux Arnautes ,leurs descendants,ce chant militaire."

Përkthim:Maqedonët ecnin për sulm tue këndue hymnin e luftës;dhe ata atë hymn u a lanë trashëgim Arnautëve që janë pasardhësit e tyne.

Burim:Dictionnaire de l'armée de terre
Général Baron Bardin 1841-1851

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#534

Post by Mallakastrioti » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:17 pm

"Ce curieux casque en cône de 450-425 avant Jésus-Christ provient du Péloponnèse, Laconie ou Arcadie, et a été trouvé à Dodone. Sa forme est faite pour évoquer celle des couvre-chefs de laine portés par les chasseurs et les marins."



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(Po ja qe jane vetem shqipot qe i mbajne ato kapelet e leshit te gjuetareve dhe marinareve te lashte te keshtuquajtur "grek")
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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#535

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:48 pm

Per Trojan dhe te tjeret!

Duke shfletuar gjithandej neper internet ndesha edhe ne materialin e meposhtem te Konstantinos Paparrigopoulos (historiani i pare nacionalist ne Greqine moderne), per te cilin Maqedonet e vjeter nuk ishin gje tjeter vecse nje perzierje midis ilireve dhe heleneve:

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Rendesia e nje materiali te tille eshte e pamatshme sidomos per kohen kur eshte shkruar. Para se te lindte nacionalizmi mendjengusht 'grek', historiane dhe intelektuale te shumte nuk ngurronin te pranonin te verteten per Epirin dhe Maqedonine. Asokohe, qasja ndaj ketyre problematikave qe krejtesisht tjeter.

Do t'i lutesha Trojan'it dhe kujdo qe e njeh 'greqishten' te kontrollojne te njejtin liber te Paparrigopolous'it per te pare qendrimin e tij karshi Epirit dhe Epiroteve te vjeter!

Miqesisht
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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#536

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:53 pm

Per Zeus10 dhe te tjeret...

Dyzimi i fiseve ilire ne veri dhe ne jug padyshim flet per levizje te vazhdueshme historike, te cilat ne instance te fundit kane ndikuar ne krijimin e nje uniteti te konsiderueshem gjuhesor. Eshte goxha tunduese puna e ketyre fiseve:
Illyrian: Atintani --> Illyrian tribe north of Via Egnatia (just above Durres)
Epirotan: Atintanes --> inland of the Epirotic coast

Illyrian: Amantini --> Pannonia
Epirotan: Amantes --> southern Albania

Illyrian: Autariatae --> southwest Serbia, Taras Mountains
Epirotan: Autariatae (spelling from a sole Roman source, hence Latin forum) --> 'Epirus'

Illyrian: Dassaretti --> Dalmatian coast
Epirotan: Dassaretae --> Macedonian/Epirotan border, today southern Albania

Illyrian: Perrhaebi --> Illyris, northern Albania
Epirotan: Perrhaebi --> northernmost Thessaly
Kesaj liste me plot te drejte mund t'i shtojme edhe nje etnike tjeter: Pellagonet, habitati historik i te cileve ishte ne lindje te Liqenit te Ohrit, gjegjesisht ne pjeset veriore te Maqedonise se mocme. Nje fis me te njejtin emer jetonte edhe ne brigjet e Dalmacise...

I pari qe vuri re nje lidhje te tille ishte gjermani Niebuhr:

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Mirepo, fusnota aty eshte dhene gabimisht:

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Si rrjedhim, kjo me ka ngaterruar per gjate kohe aq sa kam menduar se kemi te bejme me nje keqkuptim te tekstit greqisht nga ana e Niebuhrit. Mirepo duke lexuar Skymnin gjeta me gjasme te njejtin fis:

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Teksti i mesiperm eshte version ne latinisht, kurse ne vijim do te siperfaq edhe tekstin ne greqisht (i postuar me pare edhe nga Mallakastrioti):

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Me aq sa kuptoj ne greqisht e latinisht, Skymni jep te pakten kete shtrirje gjeografike: Venetet, Hymanet, Mentoret, Pelagonet, Liburnet, Bulinet, etj.

Me kete rast do t'i lutesha shume Zeusit ose kushdo tjeter qe ka mundesi te jap nje pergjigje te denje, ta perktheje pjesen perkatese (per Pelagonet dhe Liburnet) ne menyre qe ta qartesojme kontekstin.

Eshte tejet e rendesishme kjo per shkak se ne vetevete perben edhe nje prove tjeter te rendesishme qe thekson iliricitetin e Epirit dhe Maqedonise.
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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#537

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:34 pm

Sic mund te vihet re, ne informacionin qe na sillet, per fiset, pothuajse per cdo fis(ethnos) te rendesishem te ilireve kemi nje dublikate ne Epir. Psh Bylinet(apo ndryshe Hylinet) na jepen nje fis ilir qe jetonin diku aty ku eshte sot Kroacia, ne nje sekuence gjeografike sipas Pseudo_Skylaksit:

......18. KELTOI. And after Tyrrhenians are the Celtic nation, left behind from the expedition,
upon narrows as far as Adriatic [extending]. And here is the inner end of the Adriatic gulf.
19. ENETOI [Veneti]. And after Celts are the Enetian nation, and river Eridanos in them.
And from here the coastal voyage is of one day.
20. ISTROI. And after Enetians are the Istrian nation, and river Istros. This river also into the
Ponton discharges endieskeunos* to Egypt. And the coastal voyage of the Istrianians’ [sic] territory
is of a day and a night.
21. LIBYRNOI. And after Istrians are the Libyrnian nation. And in this nation there are cities
beside the sea, Lias, Idassa, Attienites, Dyÿrta, Aloupsoi, Olsoi, Pedetai, Hemionoi. These are
ruled by women and the women are free from men, and they mingle with their own slaves and
with the men of the nearby territory. By this territory are the following islands of which I can tell
the names, and there are also many others without name: Istris, island of 210 stades and width
120, Elektrides, Mentorides, and these islands are great; Katarbates river. The coastal voyage of
the Liburnid territory is of two days.
22. ILLYRIOI. And after Libyrnians are the Illyrian nation, and the Illyrians live along beside
the sea as far as Chaonia by Kerkyra, the island of Alkinoös. And there is a Hellenic city here,
which has the name Herakleia, with a harbour. The barbarians called Lotus-eaters are the
following: Hierastamnai, Boulinoi (Hyllinoi), coterminous with Boulinoi the Hylloi. And these
say Hyllos son of Herakles settled them: and they are barbarians. And they occupy a peninsula a
little lesser than the Peloponnese. And from peninsula parastonion* is upright: Boulinoi live beside
this. And Boulinoi are an Illyric nation. And the coastal voyage is of the territory of Boulinoi of a
long day up to Nestos river.
23. NESTIANS. And from Nestou the voyage is gulf-shaped. And all this gulf is called
Manios. And the coastal voyage is of one day. And there are in this gulf islands, Proteras,
Krateiai, Olynta.........
.

por greket e rinj, jane gati te vene bast panthenonin e tyre te "vjeter', ne mes te Athines "se lashte', qe byllinet ishin nje fis epirotik(sipas tyre greke), me kryeqender Bylisin e Mallakastres.

Kjo ka tre arsye pse mund te kete ndodhur:
1. "Historite" e ilireve, epiroteve dhe me gjere, jane te gjitha gjepura ose mite mesjetare, qe nuk perputhen me realitetin historik prandaj ka gjithe kete inkonsistence.
2. Iliret jane nje popull qe jetonte ne veri dhe levizi drejt jugut(per arsye te ndryshme), duke bartur me vete natyrshem emrat e fiseve dhe vendeve ku jetonte, duke i dubluar ato.
3 Historia ka kaluar manipulime te jashtezakonshme, jo vetem per brendine e saj, por dhe per autoret qe i kane shkruajtur ato. Nuk eshte rastesi, qe Pseudo-Scymnus, Pseudo -Scylax dhe Stefan Bizantini duket sikur kane kopjuar njeri-tjetrin dhe te filtrosh informacionet, per te gjetur te verteten, duhet te futesh ne nje rreth vicioz te tij dhe te autoreve
Nese do i pergjigjesha pyetjes tende, sipas ketij Scymnit, Pelagonet dhe Liburnet, i perkasin se bashku fisit te Bulineve, apo Hyllineve, apo Yllineve:

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Per ke Bylline behet fjale ata ilire apo ata epirote?
Pa dyshim qe behet fjale per ata te veriut.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#538

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:10 pm

Zeus10 wrote:Nuk eshte rastesi, qe Pseudo-Scymnus, Pseudo -Scylax dhe Stefan Bizantini duket sikur kane kopjuar njeri-tjetrin dhe te filtrosh informacionet, per te gjetur te verteten, duhet te futesh ne nje rreth vicioz te tij dhe te autoreve
Nese do i pergjigjesha pyetjes tende, sipas ketij Scymnit, Pelagonet dhe Liburnet, i perkasin se bashku fisit te Bulineve, apo Hyllineve, apo Yllineve:
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Per ke Bylline behet fjale ata ilire apo ata epirote?
Pa dyshim qe behet fjale per ata te veriut.
Pergjigjje e shkelqyer kjo! Te falemnderit Zeus....

Nese Pelagonet (e veriut) i bashkengjiten grupit te fiseve te Hyllineve te famshem atehere kjo na krijon mundesi te kemi nje pasqyre mjaft te qarte te levizjeve veri-jug ose edhe anasjelltas, me c'rast (sipas mendimit tim, gjithnje) elementi ilir vetem sa eshte kohezionuar.

Pra, listes te cituar ne postin tim i shtohet edhe kjo me Hyllet/Bylllinet (Dalmaci - Mallakaster) si dhe kjo me Pellagonet (Dalmaci - Maqedoni veriore). Ja edhe nje tjeter etnike e dyzuar:
Derriopes (Greek: Δερρίοπες) was an Illyrian tribe. [1] These regions are known to have been inhabited at an early date subsequently by Indo-European (or Mediterranean) peoples.
Deuriopus (Strabo: Δευρίοπος Deuriopos; Stephanus of Byzantium: Δουρίοπος Douriopos) was a subdivision of Paionia, in what is today the Republic of Macedonia. Its exact limits are unclear, but it is known that it contained lands around the river Crna (ancient Erigonus). The towns Bryanium (Bruanion in ancient Greek) and Styberra (also known as Stuberrha) (near today's Prilep) were located in Deuriopus. According to Livy, Philip V of Macedon founded the city of Perseis in Deuriopus, named after his eldest son, Perseus.[1]
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#539

Post by AgrianShigjetari » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:16 pm

Lidhje te shkelqyera mes fiseve keni gjetur Zeus & Albpelasgian

Pa i hequr as edhe nji presje diskutimit tuaj, do te shfrytezoja rastin te ju njoh me disa paragrafe injorante te Hammondit (filo-greku me i madh qe ka prodhuar ndonjehere Anglia) sesi mundohet t'i helenizoje Pellagonet e Derriopet.
“The district of Derriopus adjoined Illyrian territory, namely that of the Penestae, who were called 'Penestae Illyrii … bellicosum genus', when Pleuratus sent them to serve in the Macedonian army (Livy 44. 11. 7); as 2,000 were engaged in the defense of Cassandrea, they were a large tribe. Livy and Strabo both say that the Erigon rose in the 'Illyrian mountains' and this perhaps implies that the Penestae held the head of the valley, and that the frontier of Derriopus was not much above the defile of Styberra [see Map 9]... The territory Derriopus is clearly related to the river, as all its cities are said to have been beside it. As it is already a large river when it enters the plain, it forms a natural frontier with the Pelagones. Derriopus then was the district west and south of the river, [Macedonian] Styberra being at that time [BBB: p. 67 talks of different sites for Macedonian and Roman Styberra] on the right bank... the limits of Derriopus on the west may be set at the ridge between Demir Hisar and Suvodol... This country probably belonged to the Penestae. To the south of Demir Hissar there is a flat plain by Suvodol, and on crossing an oak-clad ridge one descends through a wide valley with arable slopes, which merges into the main Pelagonian plain just north of Monastir. It is likely then that the country to the south of Demir Hissar goes with the main plain, and that it belonged to the Derriopes. This receives some support from three inscriptions in Greek found at Suvodol ... These inscriptions are appropriate to the territory of the Derriopes and not that of the Penestae. The richest part of Derriopus was the plain west of Cerna Reka which is well watered by the tributaries flowing from the western hills... The Cerna Reka makes a great bend at Brod and flows north-eastwards into the difficult country known as the Morihovo. There the Derriopes held both sides of the river valley ... the river Osphagus was the river Semnica, and Pluinna, obeying the rule of Derriopan cities, was by the river near Trnovo ...” (Hammond; Macedonia Vol 1 69-71)

“The Pelagones held the plain east of the river and the hills to the east. One of the three cities of Strabo's Πελαγονια τριπολιτις was at Belovodica. Its name was perhaps Andraristus; for Ptol. 3. 13. 34 mentions only Andraristus and Stobi as cities of the Pelagones, and Andraristus was therefore probably close to the Roman road, as is the ancient site at Belovodica. Another city was Azorus, the only one named by Strabo (C 327). As Stobi was Paeonian in Strabo's time, the third city may have been Pissaeum, although Plb. 5. 108. 1 calls it a 'polisma'. As it was sacked by Scerdilaidas the Illyrian, it was probably in north-west Pelagonia. The frontier of Pelagonia marched with that of the Derriopes on the south-west, south, and south-east, and with that of the Illyrian Penestae of the Velcka valley on the north-west. To the east s frontier was most readily defended at the defile above the confluence of the Rajetz and the Cerna near the station 'Euristo. on the Roman road.” (Hammond; Macedonia Vol 1 71-72)

“Within the tribal states of the Lyncestae, the Dassaretii, the Antani, the Deriopes and the Pelagones there were smaller units. Such units were the Heracleotae, the Lychnidii and the Styberraei who lived mainly in an urban centre. Other units were smaller tribal groups. Thus within the large tribal state of the Pelagones we find η των Αργεσταιων πολις, which passed its own decrees and honoured a Roman proconsul ... and probably within the community of the Argestai we find a small community paying its devotion to Hera Νεαπολειτων το κοινον Ηραν θεον ετους ηος. In this case the dating by the Macedonian era to AD 150 shows that the Neapoleitae considered themselves to be Macedonians and so were Pelagonians not Paeonians. Within the tribal state of the Derriopi an inscription was found by Kazarow in the church of Pestani, south of the Cerna and south-east of Dunje, which recorded a vote of gratitude by Δοστωνεω[ν] το κοινον. Another inscription, this time in Latin and dating to AD 120, was found at Vitoliste, nowadays the chief place in the Morihovo district. This records the laying of boundary-markers between the Geneatae (possibly Ceneatae) and another group whose name ended in -xini. It seems likely that here too we have small communities of a tribal kind rather than of an urban character.// A smaller community still is the κωμη. The acts of such a community are recorded in Greek inscriptions found at Suvodol in western Derriopus (Spomenik 98 (1941-8) no. 58; see p. 70 above). Another is mentioned in an inscription found at Bela Tsarkva, a village to the north of Tsepicovo, where it was built into a church wall. It is dated by the Macedonian era to A.D. 192. It records a gift of money to τη Αλκομεναιων κωμη, ταις φυλαις, and arranges for four tribes to make sacrifices on the same day, one to Zeus Agoraeus and Hera in the agora and the other three 'at the altar in Alcomena (εν Αλκομενα) which the donor had made and inscribed and Octavius (?) had delighted in. Alcomena is a kome, a corporate group of persons known as the Alcomenaei, and there can be no doubt that it is one of several komai which made up Alalcomenae, one of the cities of the Derriopes (Str. 7 C 327 αι των Δευριοπων πολεις ... ων το Βρυανιον και Αλαλκομεναι και Στυβαρα); or the Derriopan cities were on the Erigon, and Bela Tsarkva is beside the northern branch of the Cerna, the Blato. The four tribes in the kome are presumably those of the polis of the Alalcomenai, and they presumably existed in all the constituent komai. The ephebic inscription which was found also at Bela Tsarkva begins with the words αλειφουσης της πολεως (not της κωμης) and the polis is probably Alalcomenae. The inscription is dated by the Macedonian era to A.D. 121. We may visualize here a polis of the early Dorian type, such as Sparta was in the time of Thucydides, ουτε ξυνοικισθεισης πολεως ... κατακωμας δε τω παλαιω της Ελλαδος τροπω οικισθεισης (Thuc. 1. 10.2).

This structure of large tribal groups, containing lesser tribal groups, and forming into political units of εθνος, φυλη, πολις, κωμη, and κοινον, is one which we should regard in central and southern Greece as typical of the archaic period. Was it indigenous in these remote north-western territories or was it imposed by Macedonian or Roman rulers? All historical parallels suggest that it was indigenous, a survival of a system congenial to the peoples of this high and mountainous terrain and as old as the time of their first arrival. The ethnos and the komai were already in Lyncus in the fifth century (Thuc. 2. 99. 2 and 4. 124. 4). If the structure is Greek, it may not be exclusively Greek; for all we know, the Illyrian Penestae or the Dardanii may have had similar institutions. But there is another point of distinction, not only the use of Greek speech but the very high proportion of Greek names. The ephebic lists found at Tsepicovo, being evidently those of the Styberraei, and those of the ephebarchus and the ephebes found at Beta Tsarkva, being probably those of the Alalcomenaei, contain a great many names. These are almost to a man Greek names; the exceptions are some Latin names, due no doubt to legionary fathers, and an occasional Illyrian or Thracian name, such as Epicadus, Beithys, Sitas, and Getriporis. If the Derriopes were in fact Illyrians or Thracians in descent, it is impossible to account for the purity of their Greek speech and for the almost complete dominance of Greek names, especially as the occasional one which is admitted cannot be regarded as substantial evidence of Illyrian or Thracian survival. It seems clear that these people were Greek by descent; that is they bore the mark of institutions, language, and nomenclature which distinguished the Hellenic tribes from their neighbours, and they were Greek in this sense before they became Macedonian in a political sense.

The closest parallels to the origin and situation of the Derriopes, Pelagones, and the others are to be seen in the tribes of Epirus, which were also neighbours of Illyrians. There we have the same tribal structures in large groups, e.g. Molossi or Chaones, and numerous small tribes making up a large group but each having its own koinon; the same use of Greek language and the same dominance of Greek nomenclature, both seen from inscriptions of 370-368 B.C. and neither attributable to the extension of Macedonian rule. But, more than this, we have a close similarity in the formation of the ethnics of north-western Macedonia and of Epirus: Lyncestae, Dolenestae and (in Epirus) Hyncestae, Ethnestae, Orestae; Derriopes and Hellopes; Alcomenaei and Eurymenaei; Argestaei and Aegestaei; Limnaei and Larisaei; Combreatae, Geneatae, (?) Maleiatae and Oriatae, Phylatae, Edonesatae; Pelagones and Chaones, Amymones, Sylliones. The names of the Derriopan cities are also comparable to those in Epirus: Styberra (Strabo's Stybara) to Kemara (modern Himarre), Alalcomenae to Eurymenae, Bryanium to Bryanium, Pluinna to Gitana. These analogies are so close that we have no reason to doubt the ancient tradition in Str. 7 C 326 and 9 C 434 that the Pelagones, Elimiotae, and Orestae, and in general the inland tribes bordering on the Illyrian mountains (οι υπερκειμενοι και συναπτοντες τοις Ιλλυρικοις ορεσι) were Epirotic tribes. I shall discuss later the origin and significance of Strabo's statements. They rest upon observations of ethnic relationships rather than of a way of life; for Strabo goes on in C 326 fin. to say that 'some' (indicating a different source) call the whole area up to Corcyra 'Macedonia' because of similarities of tonsure, dialect, and dress (the chlamys).
While we have the geography of the north-western area in mind, it is desirable to note the extent of Strabo's statement in C 326. The Illyrian mountains begin for him in book 7 to the north of the Via Egnatia, and the traveller has on his right 'the Epirotic tribes’ (C 323); in general these tribes lying inland and bordering on the Illyrian mountains occupy rough country, and some of them are 'close to the Macedonians’ rather (than to ? central Epirus), whereupon Orestias is mentioned (C 326). But the Illyrian tribes are interspersed there, that is those tribes by the south part of the (Illyrian) mountain range and those inland of the Ionian Gulf; for the Bylliones and Taulantii (being inland of the Ionian Gulf) and the Parthini and the Brygi (being at the southern end of the Illyrian range, ie. where the Shkumbi cuts through it) live inland of Epidamnus and Apollonia. After a short digression he adds apparently to his list of 'the Epirotic tribes' the Lyncestae, Derriopus, Pelagonia, the Eordi, Elimea, and Eratyra. And at the end of the chapter he explains, as he does also at C 434, that as a result of imperialism the Epirotes close to the Macedonians became part of their domains and indeed all except a few inland of the Ionian Gulf (C 326 fin. Πλην ολιγων των υπερ του Ιονιου κολπου). Now if his list of the interspersed Illyrian tribes is complete, it means that the Dassaretii, the Amantes, the Parauaei, and the Chaones are regarded by him as Epirotic, and of these the few close to Macedonia and inland of the Ionian Gulf who escaped Macedonia's clutches were the Dassaretii and the Parauaei. There are also independent reasons for supposing these two peoples to have been in some sense Epirotic; for FGrH I (Hecataeus) F 103 describes the Dexari—those after whom the district Dassaretis was named—as a Chaonian tribe living under Mt. Amyron, which is the great mountain behind Berat, Mt. Tomor; and FGrH 265 (Rhianus) F 19 attributes the Parauaei to Epirus as a Thesprotian tribe. I conclude then that the Dassaretii were a Greek-speaking people of the so-called Epirotic group, akin to the Lyncestae and the Orestae, for instance, and to the more southerly tribes of the Chaones. (2)
(2) Because the territory west of Macedonia and north of Epirus was known generally as Illyris and later was part of the Roman province of Illyric” (Hammond; Macedonia Vol 1 88-92)
Ky njeri s'asht n'tokes t'bukes, si thot fjala. Ne njeren ane pranon menyren e organizimit qe ishte shume e ngjashme me at' ilire e ne anen tjeter sebet ca mbishkrimeve (te shkruejtuna ne nje greqishte pedante) na i nxjerr per grek :mrgreen:
Ky Hammondi jo qe s'ka qene n'dijeni, por thjesht i ka fshehur lidhjet e ketij kompleksi fisesh me simotrat e tyre ne Dalmaci ne menyre qe te arrije qellimin djallezor te de-ilirizimit te ketij rajoni....

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Re: Ilire, Maqedone dhe Helene.

#540

Post by Mallakastrioti » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:56 am

Medalje te lashta dhe "enigmatike" prej territoreve ilire. Ne librin
"Descrizione di molte medaglie antiche greche esistenti in più ... "
Domenico Sestini - 1828, kemi diçka interesante lidhur nje medalje qe autori e pershkruan, por nuk di ti japi shpjegim si ka mundesi qe ne ishullin e Farit (ku lindi edhe Dhimiter Fari) kemi te shkruar emrin e Homerit mbi kete medalje. Medalja ne nje ane ka koken e Zeus (sipas autorit), por ai shton se nje e ngjashme apo identike po ne anen e kokes ne vend te Zeus ka te shkruar "OMIRIS=HOMER"
"Ne muzeun Hedervariano jane 6 medalje te ngjashme dhe ne njeren prej tyre ne anen e kokes lexohet OMIROS (=Homer)..."

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