"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

Këtu mund të flisni mbi historinë tonë duke sjellë fakte historike për ndriçimin e asaj pjese të historisë mbi të cilen ka rënë harresa e kohës dhe e njerëzve.

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#136

Post by AgrianShigjetari » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:05 pm

Ky autori i meposhtem ben perqasje midis Epiroteve (Sulioteve gjegjesisht) dhe fiseve skoceze, antagonizmave midis tyre, etj. Do te doja shume nga Socio ose edhe Zeusi (ose kushdo tjeter qe e njeh te pakten historine e skocezeve) te na i bej me te qarta paralelizmat e hedhura prej autorit midis skocezeve dhe epiroteve malesor!

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#137

Post by Socio » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:52 pm

AgrianShigjetari wrote:Ky autori i meposhtem ben perqasje midis Epiroteve (Sulioteve gjegjesisht) dhe fiseve skoceze, antagonizmave midis tyre, etj. Do te doja shume nga Socio ose edhe Zeusi (ose kushdo tjeter qe e njeh te pakten historine e skocezeve) te na i bej me te qarta paralelizmat e hedhura prej autorit midis skocezeve dhe epiroteve malesor!


Agrian, autori ketu terhjek paralele mes historise se shqiptareve (epiroteve) dhe skocezve, histori qe atij, pa dyshim, i duken pothuajse identike.

Mcdonaldet dhe Campbellet kane qene dy fiset me te medha dhe me te famshme te Skotlandes te cilat fatkeqesisht edhepse Skoceze ne gjak, gjuhe e tradita kane luftuar ndermjet vete rregullisht, por ne disa raste edhe kane luftuar bashkerisht kunder ndonje tirani te huaj, psh, Anglezeve.

Mcdonaldet kane qene fis malesor, trim, i pavarur, katolike ne orientimin fetar dhe qe nuk kane duruar direktiva nga te tjeret se si ti jetojne jeterat e tyre. Keta, padyshim autori i barazon me Suliotet.

Ndersa Campbellet poashtu kane qene fis i madh e i forte por protestant ne orientim te cilet i kane sherbyer mbreterve te ndryshem qe poashtu kane qene vendas, pra Skoceze, por te cileve shpesh nuk u kane perfillur ligjet, sidomos nga malesoret, si psh Mcdonaldet. Qe, natyrisht, pastaj edhe ka ardhur deri tek lufterat ne mes ketyre fiseve. Campbellet, ne kete rast, padyshim se autori i krahason me Labet e Shqiperise qe ishte edhe vete Ali Pasha ose ne rastin e Campbelleve ishte Duka i Argjyllit.

Autori na jep te kuptojme se ne Shqiperi kishte lufte qytetare ndershqiptare ne ate kohe.
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#138

Post by AgrianShigjetari » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:30 pm

Socio wrote:
Agrian, autori ketu terhjek paralele mes historise se shqiptareve (epiroteve) dhe skocezve, histori qe atij, pa dyshim, i duken pothuajse identike.
Mcdonaldet dhe Campbellet kane qene dy fiset me te medha dhe me te famshme te Skotlandes te cilat fatkeqesisht edhepse Skoceze ne gjak, gjuhe e tradita kane luftuar ndermjet vete rregullisht, por ne disa raste edhe kane luftuar bashkerisht kunder ndonje tirani te huaj, psh, Anglezeve.
Mcdonaldet kane qene fis malesor, trim, i pavarur, katolike ne orientimin fetar dhe qe nuk kane duruar direktiva nga te tjeret se si ti jetojne jeterat e tyre. Keta, padyshim autori i barazon me Suliotet.
Ndersa Campbellet poashtu kane qene fis i madh e i forte por protestant ne orientim te cilet i kane sherbyer mbreterve te ndryshem qe poashtu kane qene vendas, pra Skoceze, por te cileve shpesh nuk u kane perfillur ligjet, sidomos nga malesoret, si psh Mcdonaldet. Qe, natyrisht, pastaj edhe ka ardhur deri tek lufterat ne mes ketyre fiseve. Campbellet, ne kete rast, padyshim se autori i krahason me Labet e Shqiperise qe ishte edhe vete Ali Pasha ose ne rastin e Campbelleve ishte Duka i Argjyllit.

Autori na jep te kuptojme se ne Shqiperi kishte lufte qytetare ndershqiptare ne ate kohe.
E qarte si drita! Te falemnderit shume Socio per shpjegimin!

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#139

Post by AgrianShigjetari » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:49 pm

Nje fakt tjeter perse autore te ndryshem shohin 'grek' ne Epir qe se ne shekullin e XIX ishte prakitike gjithballkanike qe ne zona urbane popullata e ritit ortodoks te quhej 'greke'. Kete e them duke u mbeshtete ne ate qe ne plot qytete bullgare ortodokse, bullgaret identifikoheshin si 'grek'.
At least this is true of the Gheg clans of the northern mountain district, though the Tosks of Epirus are more settled and urbane, and approach somewhat more nearly to the general standard of European culture.

The Edinburgh review, Volume 217, Sydney Smith, p. 260

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#140

Post by Socio » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:12 am

AgrianShigjetari wrote:E qarte si drita! Te falemnderit shume Socio per shpjegimin!
Me nder qofsh Agrian !


Ketu, nje autor tjeter i kesaj periudhe (Edward Augustus Freeman - 1877 ) na jep po te njejten pikpamje per kete lufte civile shqiptare:


Image
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... dhe duhet te mbahet ne mend se Shqiptaret ne pergjithesi, Muhamedan e te Krishtere, gjithmone kane pasur ndenje te forte kombetare ...

prandaj pushtimi i Sulioteve nga Ali pasha ...

... ishte nje pushtim i Krishtereve nga Muhamedanet; por nuk ishte pushtim i Krishtereve nga Turqit. Ne te vertete, ishte pushtim i Shqiptareve nga Shqiptaret




Edward Augustus Freeman 1877, ne:

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One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#141

Post by AgrianShigjetari » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:37 pm

Socio, materiali i mesiperm eshte me teper se i shkelqyeshem. Nje prove me shume per te deshmuar qe sa fuqishem e konceptonin shqiptaret identitetin e tyre kombetar (qe kesisoj tejkalonte caqet lokaliste dhe fetare)...

E kam nje lutje serish per Zeus10 (qe ma merr mendja se e njeh frengishten) dhe Socion per t'me ndihmuar me e gjet kete citat (nese eshte ekzistent) i Pukevillit kur flet per Etoline dhe Akarnanine shqiptare. Kam provuar ne shume libra online te Pukevillit por pa ndonje sukses.

Nje historian nga Kosova ne shkrimin e tij per Epirin citon:
Edhe Pukëvili kur flet për Akarnaninë dhe Etolinë thekson se:”...këto vende (në kohën e tij) quheshin Shqipëri dhe banorët e saj quheshin shqiptar” (60).

60. Pouqueville,Udhëtime në More, në Konstandinopojë, në Shqipëri dhe në vende tjera të Perandorisë Osmane gjatë viteve 1798,1799-1800 dhe 1801, Paris 1805
Ne dy libra online te Pukevillit kerkova por s'po e gjej dot:

http://books.google.com/books?id=N-4GAA ... ia&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=PqUDAA ... &q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=nD4QAQ ... &q&f=false

Ka ndonje mundesi te gjejme kete citat apo eshte ndonje keq-interpretim i historianit nga Kosova?

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#142

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:01 pm

Me 1204 Michael L'Angelo krijoi nje depotat qe perfshinte Epirin, Akarnanine dhe Etoline i cili pati pavaresi deri me 1431. Popullsia e ketij Despotati, permendet te kete qene luftarake duke i rezistuar pushtimit turk, ku rolin kryesor e mbanin shqiptaret, te cilet zoteruan dhe Thesaline dhe Maqedonine ne kete periudhe.

Enciclopedia italiana e dizionario della conversazione. Volumi 1 faqe 571
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#143

Post by AgrianShigjetari » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:21 pm

Les Toxides sont svelles et sanguins : leur costume rappelle presque entièrement le costume héroïque; chaussure , cothurne, chlamyde, toge, ceinture, cotte tombant aux genoux, rien ne leur manque, si ce n'est le casque, pour ressembler aux soldats de Pyrrhus. Leur costume respire tellement la liberté, et de plus il ressemble si bien à celui des anciens Hellènes., qu'à la révolution toute la Grèce l'a salué avec enthousiasme, et en a fait son costume national. Les Iapyges sont petits, maigres, rabougris, laids, malpropres, et féroces ; c'est le rebut des Schypetars ; ils vivent dans les montagnes : leur costume est le môme que celui des Toxides, mais avec des couleurs sombres. Les Chamides sont les plus beaux, les plus généreux, les plus brillans et les plus rienes; on les reconnaît à leurs magnifiques cheveux blonds ou châtains. Ils habitent au bord de la mer Ionienne dans la Thesprolie, au milieu des bocages arrosés par la Thyamis et l'Achéron : ils ont été presque anéantis par Ali-Pacha.
Nje perkthim te zbehte sapo morra prej 'google translate":
The Toxides are Svelle and blood: their dress costume recalls almost entirely heroic shoe buskin, cloak, robe, belt, tunic falling to the knees, they lack nothing, except the helmet to look like soldiers of Pyrrhus . Their dress exudes so much freedom, and it looks more so than the ancient Greeks., That the revolution throughout Greece was greeted with enthusiasm, and made her national costume. The Iapyges are small, thin, stunted, ugly, dirty, and fierce, it is the disposal of Skipetars, they live in the mountains: their dress is the same as that of Toxides, but with darker colors. The Chamides are the nicest, most generous, most brilliant and nothing more, they are distinguished by their beautiful hair blond or brown. They live near the Ionian Sea in the Thesprolie, amid groves watered by the Acheron and Thyamis: they were almost wiped out by Ali Pasha
Kushdo qe e njeh gjuhen frenge le t'a hulumtoje kete enciklopedi prej nga e kam marre tekstin:

http://books.google.com/books?id=kbo_AA ... us&f=false

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#144

Post by AgrianShigjetari » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:33 pm

Déjà, les montagnes de l'Epire et de l'Illyrie remplissent leur fonction historique: elles sont un réservoir qui laisse couler son trop-plein d'hommes vers les riches plaines d'alentour. Avec Pyrrhus, roi d'Epire, les Albanais font trembler Rome. Lui vaincu, l'Epire et l'Illyrie sont soumises aux Romains; pendant plusieurs siècles, la race albanaise vit dans les cadres de l'administration et de la paix romaine. L'Illyrie n'a plus d'histoire particulière, mais les hommes

L'Europe et la Jeune Turquie: les aspects nouveaux de la question ...

René Pinon - 1913 -, p. 299
Already, the mountains of Epirus and Illyria perform their historic function: they are allowed to run its reservoir overflow of men to the rich plains around. Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, the Albanian shake Rome. He conquered Epirus and Illyria are subject to the Romans for several centuries, race Albanian living in senior administration and the Roman peace. Illyria has no particular history, but men

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#145

Post by AgrianShigjetari » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:30 pm

Dikush me te drejte shtronte kete pyetje:
The mountains of Thermopylae, not the waters of the Peneus, formed the frontier of the champions of the civilisation of Greece. Why does the Hellene of our time require a larger stage than the men of old ?

http://books.google.com/books?id=ta_QAA ... CE8Q6AEwCQ
Mundet dikush qe ka qasje te pakufizuar ne shfletimin e books.google te gjeje kontekstin e plote ku eshte thene kjo fjali?

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#146

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:45 pm

AgrianShigjetari wrote:Dikush me te drejte shtronte kete pyetje:
The mountains of Thermopylae, not the waters of the Peneus, formed the frontier of the champions of the civilisation of Greece. Why does the Hellene of our time require a larger stage than the men of old ?
Mundet dikush qe ka qasje te pakufizuar ne shfletimin e books.google te gjeje kontekstin e plote ku eshte thene kjo fjali?
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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#147

Post by AgrianShigjetari » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:15 pm

T'falemnderit perzemersisht Zeus per materialin e mesiperm.

Sot duke kerkuar sa andej sa kendej, gjeta pos te tjerash edhe kete fragment:
and some of these are Moslems, eg at and about Preveza. There are also Moslem and some Christian clans, which are definitely Albanian, south of Jannina . East and north-east of the latter town lies the holding of the Christian
Autori me gjase po flet per helenizimin e Epirit (gjate shek.XIX) mirepo per fat te keq s'po mund ta postoj per shkak te qasjes se kufizuar ne books.google. Po pat dikush qasje te pakufizuar atje dhe kohe te lire, le te ndaje nja dy minuta sa per te postuar tere kontekstin ku eshte thene fragmenti i mesiperm. Ja lidhja:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lOObAA ... CCIQ6AEwAA

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#148

Post by Zeus10 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:56 am

AgrianShigjetari wrote: Sot duke kerkuar sa andej sa kendej, gjeta pos te tjerash edhe kete fragment:
and some of these are Moslems, eg at and about Preveza. There are also Moslem and some Christian clans, which are definitely Albanian, south of Jannina . East and north-east of the latter town lies the holding of the Christian
Autori me gjase po flet per helenizimin e Epirit (gjate shek.XIX) mirepo per fat te keq s'po mund ta postoj per shkak te qasjes se kufizuar ne books.google. Po pat dikush qasje te pakufizuar atje dhe kohe te lire, le te ndaje nja dy minuta sa per te postuar tere kontekstin ku eshte thene fragmenti i mesiperm. Ja lidhja:
East and north-east of the latter town lies the holding of the Christian Kutzo Vlachs, the majority of whom are in communition with the Orthodox Greek Church, but do not, unless the better educated classes, speak Greek. Since however, the whole region up to Argyrokastro is in the main, Christian and Orthodox (such bishoprics as there are being all Greeks).On the other hand, it will be urged, and with some reason, that, apart from the presence of a considerable minority of Albanians who are largely Moslem, Epirus is geographically a part, not of Greece, but of the Albanian Belt , and that to detach this part from the Albanian belt is to rob the future autonomous province of its most open and fertile district, in which alone settled ways of life are at all well established.
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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#149

Post by AgrianShigjetari » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:03 pm

Helenizimi bizantin i Shqiperise Jugore - pjeseve jugore te Epirit u be gjithehere nga tandemi korelativ Shkolla Greke - Turqia:
The first book in Albanian was published near the close of the sixteenth century, a small catechism. Since then, at long intervals, small books have appeared, but as almost no one could read them they made but little impression. If the number of books has been very small, the number of different alphabets has been large enough to be a real curse. About fifteen years ago an alphabet of thirty-six letters was adopted. Since then there has been some literary activity, but it has had many difficulties to contend with. The Greek Church fiercely opposes all schools, books, newspapers, and preaching in Albanian, even when conducted by orthodox Greek Christians. The Turkish government, too, would like to have Albanian a dead language, and so frowns down on all publications and schools. Albanian, however, persists in being almost the only language spoken in Albania.

The Missionary Herald"

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Re: JANINA - PRAPAVIJA E SAJ SHQIPTARE

#150

Post by Zeus10 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:56 am

Dua ta sjell dhe njehere kete faqen e meposhtme dhe citimin prej saj, per te kuptuar, qe greket jo vetem jane nje komb i ri, por ata nuk permbushnin dhe kriteret per tu ngritur ne rangun e nje kombi, duke u bere ne menyre shume te sforcuar si te tille:
....that whatever the Greeks may have been formerly. and however lamentable the causes of their actual degeneracy, they are at the present totally unfit for being raised into an indipendent nation, and would infallibly constitute themselves a Russian colony........
Marre prej:
POLICY OF ENGLAND AT THE PRESENT CRISIS, WITH RESPECT TO GREECE
The Morning Chronicle (London, England), Friday, November 2, 1821; Issue 16393.

dhe ky eshte nje opinion i njerit prej shteteve, qe kontribuan me shume per kete krijim te sforcuar.
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