"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

Këtu mund të flisni mbi historinë tonë duke sjellë fakte historike për ndriçimin e asaj pjese të historisë mbi të cilen ka rënë harresa e kohës dhe e njerëzve.

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Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#1

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:09 pm

Kjo për mendimin tim, ua bën shumë të hidhur ditën bizantinëve të internetit:

This was the battle order of the two armies that had taken the field. The forces on the king's side numbered 70,000 foot, of whom the Greeks who had crossed the Ionian gulf amounted to 16,000; on the Roman side there were more than 70,000, about 20,000 of them being from Rome itself. Of horse the Romans had about 8,000, while Pyrrhus had slightly more, as well as nineteen elephants.
Dmth, nga 70,000 aq sa numëronte ushtria e Pirros, kishte 54,000 Epirotë (ilirë) dhe 16,000 mercenarë ''''grek'' (të cilën unë e konsideroj të stërfryrë meqë në ushtrinë e Lekës nuk ishin më shumë se 5000 'grek'). Çka mendon Zeus?
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE

#2

Post by Socio » Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:05 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote:Kjo për mendimin tim, ua bën shumë të hidhur ditën bizantinëve të internetit:

This was the battle order of the two armies that had taken the field. The forces on the king's side numbered 70,000 foot, of whom the Greeks who had crossed the Ionian gulf amounted to 16,000; on the Roman side there were more than 70,000, about 20,000 of them being from Rome itself. Of horse the Romans had about 8,000, while Pyrrhus had slightly more, as well as nineteen elephants.
Dmth, nga 70,000 aq sa numëronte ushtria e Pirros, kishte 54,000 Epirotë (ilirë) dhe 16,000 mercenarë ''''grek'' (të cilën unë e konsideroj të stërfryrë meqë në ushtrinë e Lekës nuk ishin më shumë se 5000 'grek'). Çka mendon Zeus?

Alb, ketij citimi mund ti jepen interpretime te ndryshme !

Nuk eshte i mjaftueshem !
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE

#3

Post by alfeko sukaraku » Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:51 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote:Kjo për mendimin tim, ua bën shumë të hidhur ditën bizantinëve të internetit:

This was the battle order of the two armies that had taken the field. The forces on the king's side numbered 70,000 foot, of whom the Greeks who had crossed the Ionian gulf amounted to 16,000; on the Roman side there were more than 70,000, about 20,000 of them being from Rome itself. Of horse the Romans had about 8,000, while Pyrrhus had slightly more, as well as nineteen elephants.
Dmth, nga 70,000 aq sa numëronte ushtria e Pirros, kishte 54,000 Epirotë (ilirë) dhe 16,000 mercenarë ''''grek'' (të cilën unë e konsideroj të stërfryrë meqë në ushtrinë e Lekës nuk ishin më shumë se 5000 'grek'). Çka mendon Zeus?
"mercenare greke"?

une mendoj se ne shek e 3 p e s ishte shume heret per te pasur "mercenar greke",pasi ata qe quheshin "greke" ishin njerzit qe shkolloheshin edhe te shkolluarit kryesisht ishin fetaret edhe "aristokratia"..ndersa forca ushtarake perbehej nga shtresa me te ulta kryesisht ku edhe skllevrit merrnin pjes ne ushtri edhe perse ata munde te mos i perkisnin origjines vendase.

sidoqofte Eforua edhe Straboni e fillojn greqin ne Akarnani ,ndersa qytetet bregdetare qe u zhvilluan edhe merreshin kryesisht me tregeti e kishin te domosdoshme te merreshin vesh me tregetaret..keshtu qe quheshin "qytete greke" sepse ne to u fut greqishtja si gjuha e tregetis edhe u mbrojt si e tille me ushtri e spiuna(kolone)

keshtu qe une mendoj se eshte e kote te flasim per greke ne epire edhe ne kohen e Pirros...aq me shume per mercenar.
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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE

#4

Post by Socio » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:08 pm

alfeko sukaraku wrote:
ALBPelasgian wrote:Kjo për mendimin tim, ua bën shumë të hidhur ditën bizantinëve të internetit:

This was the battle order of the two armies that had taken the field. The forces on the king's side numbered 70,000 foot, of whom the Greeks who had crossed the Ionian gulf amounted to 16,000; on the Roman side there were more than 70,000, about 20,000 of them being from Rome itself. Of horse the Romans had about 8,000, while Pyrrhus had slightly more, as well as nineteen elephants.
Dmth, nga 70,000 aq sa numëronte ushtria e Pirros, kishte 54,000 Epirotë (ilirë) dhe 16,000 mercenarë ''''grek'' (të cilën unë e konsideroj të stërfryrë meqë në ushtrinë e Lekës nuk ishin më shumë se 5000 'grek'). Çka mendon Zeus?
"mercenare greke"?

une mendoj se ne shek e 3 p e s ishte shume heret per te pasur "mercenar greke",pasi ata qe quheshin "greke" ishin njerzit qe shkolloheshin edhe te shkolluarit kryesisht ishin fetaret edhe "aristokratia"..ndersa forca ushtarake perbehej nga shtresa me te ulta kryesisht ku edhe skllevrit merrnin pjes ne ushtri edhe perse ata munde te mos i perkisnin origjines vendase.

sidoqofte Eforua edhe Straboni e fillojn greqin ne Akarnani ,ndersa qytetet bregdetare qe u zhvilluan edhe merreshin kryesisht me tregeti e kishin te domosdoshme te merreshin vesh me tregetaret..keshtu qe quheshin "qytete greke" sepse ne to u fut greqishtja si gjuha e tregetis edhe u mbrojt si e tille me ushtri e spiuna(kolone)

keshtu qe une mendoj se eshte e kote te flasim per greke ne epire edhe ne kohen e Pirros...aq me shume per mercenar.
Jo, une mendoj se Alb e ka mire kur permend mercenaret Greke ne ushtrine e Pirros, megjithate citimi qe ka dhene ai nuk e thote kete !
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE

#5

Post by alfeko sukaraku » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:11 pm

Socio wrote:
alfeko sukaraku wrote:
ALBPelasgian wrote:Kjo për mendimin tim, ua bën shumë të hidhur ditën bizantinëve të internetit:

This was the battle order of the two armies that had taken the field. The forces on the king's side numbered 70,000 foot, of whom the Greeks who had crossed the Ionian gulf amounted to 16,000; on the Roman side there were more than 70,000, about 20,000 of them being from Rome itself. Of horse the Romans had about 8,000, while Pyrrhus had slightly more, as well as nineteen elephants.
Dmth, nga 70,000 aq sa numëronte ushtria e Pirros, kishte 54,000 Epirotë (ilirë) dhe 16,000 mercenarë ''''grek'' (të cilën unë e konsideroj të stërfryrë meqë në ushtrinë e Lekës nuk ishin më shumë se 5000 'grek'). Çka mendon Zeus?
"mercenare greke"?

une mendoj se ne shek e 3 p e s ishte shume heret per te pasur "mercenar greke",pasi ata qe quheshin "greke" ishin njerzit qe shkolloheshin edhe te shkolluarit kryesisht ishin fetaret edhe "aristokratia"..ndersa forca ushtarake perbehej nga shtresa me te ulta kryesisht ku edhe skllevrit merrnin pjes ne ushtri edhe perse ata munde te mos i perkisnin origjines vendase.

sidoqofte Eforua edhe Straboni e fillojn greqin ne Akarnani ,ndersa qytetet bregdetare qe u zhvilluan edhe merreshin kryesisht me tregeti e kishin te domosdoshme te merreshin vesh me tregetaret..keshtu qe quheshin "qytete greke" sepse ne to u fut greqishtja si gjuha e tregetis edhe u mbrojt si e tille me ushtri e spiuna(kolone)

keshtu qe une mendoj se eshte e kote te flasim per greke ne epire edhe ne kohen e Pirros...aq me shume per mercenar.
Jo, une mendoj se Alb e ka mire kur permend mercenaret Greke ne ushtrine e Pirros, megjithate citimin qe e ka dhene ai nuk eshte i mjaftueshem. Nuk nenkupton ate cka Alb e interpreton !
qe te gjesh "mercenar greke" ne ushtrin e Pirro epiriotit duhet ne radhe te pare te njohesh se cilet jane greket.
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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE

#6

Post by Socio » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:15 pm

alfeko sukaraku wrote:
Socio wrote:
alfeko sukaraku wrote:
ALBPelasgian wrote:Kjo për mendimin tim, ua bën shumë të hidhur ditën bizantinëve të internetit:

This was the battle order of the two armies that had taken the field. The forces on the king's side numbered 70,000 foot, of whom the Greeks who had crossed the Ionian gulf amounted to 16,000; on the Roman side there were more than 70,000, about 20,000 of them being from Rome itself. Of horse the Romans had about 8,000, while Pyrrhus had slightly more, as well as nineteen elephants.
Dmth, nga 70,000 aq sa numëronte ushtria e Pirros, kishte 54,000 Epirotë (ilirë) dhe 16,000 mercenarë ''''grek'' (të cilën unë e konsideroj të stërfryrë meqë në ushtrinë e Lekës nuk ishin më shumë se 5000 'grek'). Çka mendon Zeus?
"mercenare greke"?

une mendoj se ne shek e 3 p e s ishte shume heret per te pasur "mercenar greke",pasi ata qe quheshin "greke" ishin njerzit qe shkolloheshin edhe te shkolluarit kryesisht ishin fetaret edhe "aristokratia"..ndersa forca ushtarake perbehej nga shtresa me te ulta kryesisht ku edhe skllevrit merrnin pjes ne ushtri edhe perse ata munde te mos i perkisnin origjines vendase.

sidoqofte Eforua edhe Straboni e fillojn greqin ne Akarnani ,ndersa qytetet bregdetare qe u zhvilluan edhe merreshin kryesisht me tregeti e kishin te domosdoshme te merreshin vesh me tregetaret..keshtu qe quheshin "qytete greke" sepse ne to u fut greqishtja si gjuha e tregetis edhe u mbrojt si e tille me ushtri e spiuna(kolone)

keshtu qe une mendoj se eshte e kote te flasim per greke ne epire edhe ne kohen e Pirros...aq me shume per mercenar.
Jo, une mendoj se Alb e ka mire kur permend mercenaret Greke ne ushtrine e Pirros, megjithate citimin qe e ka dhene ai nuk eshte i mjaftueshem. Nuk nenkupton ate cka Alb e interpreton !
qe te gjesh "mercenar greke" ne ushtrin e Pirro epiriotit duhet ne radhe te pare te njohesh se cilet jane greket.
Po ju vete e thate 'Greqia fillon me Akarnanine. Greke jane ato fise qe fillojne aty !
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE

#7

Post by alfeko sukaraku » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:55 am

Socio wrote:
ALBPelasgian wrote:Kjo për mendimin tim, ua bën shumë të hidhur ditën bizantinëve të internetit:

This was the battle order of the two armies that had taken the field. The forces on the king's side numbered 70,000 foot, of whom the Greeks who had crossed the Ionian gulf amounted to 16,000; on the Roman side there were more than 70,000, about 20,000 of them being from Rome itself. Of horse the Romans had about 8,000, while Pyrrhus had slightly more, as well as nineteen elephants.
Dmth, nga 70,000 aq sa numëronte ushtria e Pirros, kishte 54,000 Epirotë (ilirë) dhe 16,000 mercenarë ''''grek'' (të cilën unë e konsideroj të stërfryrë meqë në ushtrinë e Lekës nuk ishin më shumë se 5000 'grek'). Çka mendon Zeus?
"mercenare greke"?

une mendoj se ne shek e 3 p e s ishte shume heret per te pasur "mercenar greke",pasi ata qe quheshin "greke" ishin njerzit qe shkolloheshin edhe te shkolluarit kryesisht ishin fetaret edhe "aristokratia"..ndersa forca ushtarake perbehej nga shtresa me te ulta kryesisht ku edhe skllevrit merrnin pjes ne ushtri edhe perse ata munde te mos i perkisnin origjines vendase.

sidoqofte Eforua edhe Straboni e fillojn greqin ne Akarnani ,ndersa qytetet bregdetare qe u zhvilluan edhe merreshin kryesisht me tregeti e kishin te domosdoshme te merreshin vesh me tregetaret..keshtu qe quheshin "qytete greke" sepse ne to u fut greqishtja si gjuha e tregetis edhe u mbrojt si e tille me ushtri e spiuna(kolone)

keshtu qe une mendoj se eshte e kote te flasim per greke ne epire edhe ne kohen e Pirros...aq me shume per mercenar.
qe te gjesh "mercenar greke" ne ushtrin e Pirro epiriotit duhet ne radhe te pare te njohesh se cilet jane greket.[/quote]

Po ju vete e thate 'Greqia fillon me Akarnanine. Greke jane ato fise qe fillojne aty ![/quote]


po...ne kohen e Strabonit edhe jo ne kohen e Pirros.

por thelbi i kesaj ceshtje eshte njohuria jone per greket.Cilet jane greket??

ne se ishin ushtar mercenar apo fetare qe gjuha e tyre u perdor nga aristokracia per qellimi tregtare.

me 402 p e s kjo gjuhe teknike e ndertuar nga Gorjas adoptoj alfabetin jonik edhe flitej e shkruhej nder dijetaret per tu mar vesh me njeri tjetrin

me 322 p e s doli per her te pare jasht mureve te athines

me ardhjen e romakve edhe te bizantit u shendrrua ne gjuhe te ligjeve fetare te murgimit nen kudrin e latinishtes se perandoris..deri ne fund te bizantit.

ku i gjeni ju mercanaret grek ne kohen e Pirros??
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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE

#8

Post by ALBPelasgian » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:58 pm

alfeko sukaraku wrote:
ne se ishin ushtar mercenar apo fetare qe gjuha e tyre u perdor nga aristokracia per qellimi tregtare.

me 402 p e s kjo gjuhe teknike e ndertuar nga Gorjas adoptoj alfabetin jonik edhe flitej e shkruhej nder dijetaret per tu mar vesh me njeri tjetrin

me 322 p e s doli per her te pare jasht mureve te athines

me ardhjen e romakve edhe te bizantit u shendrrua ne gjuhe te ligjeve fetare te murgimit nen kudrin e latinishtes se perandoris..deri ne fund te bizantit.

ku i gjeni ju mercanaret grek ne kohen e Pirros??[/color]
Alfeko, nëse ka pasë ose jo 'mercenarë grek' në ushtrinë e Pirro Burrit, kjo është një çështje që do trajtim shumë më të gjërë, që i tejkalon caqet e temës 'Përkatësia Shqiptare e Epirit'.
Çka është më e rëndësishmja në pasazhet e Dionis Halikarnasit në këtë rast? Ndarja e qartë midis Epirotasve dhe 'grekëve' ose mercenarëve nga 'Helada' u bie si predhë mbi kokë agjitatorëve grek kudoqofshin ata, sepse ata si oruellianë të pandreçshëm që janë, priren të gjejnë në pasazhet e Strabonit, Pseudo-Skylaksit 'ndarjet' që ata i bëkan epirotëve prej ilirëve, a në fakt që të dy autorët flasin më qartë se kudo tjetër për unitetin etnik midis epirotëve dhe ilirëve.

Merre me mend: Ps.Skylaksi është gjeografi i cili fare qartë thotë se pas Ambrakisë fillon në mënyrë kompakte 'Greqia'. Propagandistët grek për t'i ikur kësaj të vërtete, thonë se gjoja PS-Skylaksi dalluaka ilirët nga thesprotët. Këtu dhe shumë të tjera i kam vënë në pah në studimin tim 'The use and abuse of ancient texts by Modern Byzantine Propaganda' të cilin do ta botoj me gjasë nesër në webin tim personal.

Ja dhe teksti i plotë i Dionis Halikarnasit mbi shpeditën ushtarake të Pirros në Itali:
DIONYSIUS OF HALICARNASSUS
ROMAN ANTIQUITIES
p387 Excerpts from Book XX

1 Having agreed through heralds upon the time when they would join in battle,1 they descended from their camps and took up their positions as follows: King Pyrrhus gave the Macedonian phalanx the first place on the right wing and placed next to it the Italiot mercenaries from Tarentum; 2 then the troops from Ambracia and after them the phalanx of Tarentines equipped with white shields, forced by the allied force of Bruttians and Lucanians; in the middle of the battle-line he stationed the Thesprotians and Chaonians; next to them the mercenaries of the Aetolians, Acarnanians and Athamanians, and finally the Samnites, who constituted the left wing. 3 Of the horse, he stationed the Samnite, Thessalian and Bruttian squadrons and the Tarentine mercenary force upon the right wing, and the Ambraciot, Lucanian and Tarentine squadrons and the Greek mercenaries, consisting of Acarnanians, Aetolians, Macedonians and Athamanians, on the left. 4 The p389light-armed troops and the elephants he divided into two groups and placed them behind both wings, at a reasonable distance, in a position slightly elevated above the plain. He himself, surrounded by the royal agema, as it was called, of picked horsemen, about two thousand in number, was outs the battle-line, so as to aid promptly any of his troops in turn that might be hard pressed.

The consuls arrayed on their left wing the legion called the first, facing the Macedonian and Ambraciot phalanx and the Tarentine mercenaries, and, next to the first legion, the third, over against the Tarentine phalanx with its white shields and the Bruttian and Lucanian allied forces; 5 adjoining the third army they placed the fourth, facing the Molossians, Chaonians and Thesprotians; and the second on the right wing opposite the mercenaries from Greece — the Aetolians, Acarnanians and Athamanians — and the Samnite phalanx that was equipped with oblong shields. The Latins, Campanians, substitutes, Umbrians, Volscians, Marrucini, Peligni, Ferentani, and their other subjects they divided into four divisions and mingled them with the Roman legions, in order that no part of their lines might be weak. 6 And dividing the cavalry, both their own and that of their allies, they placed it on both wings. Outside the line they stationed the light-armed troops and the waggons, three hundred in number, which they had got ready p391for the battle against the elephants. These waggons had upright beams on which were mounted movable traverse poles that could be swung round as quick as thought in any direction one might wish, and on the ends of the poles there were either tridents or swordlike spikes or scythes all of iron; or again they had cranes that hurled down heavy grappling-irons. 7 Many of the poles had attached to them and projecting in front of the waggons fire-bearing grapnels wrapped in tow that had been liberally daubed with pitch, which men standing on the waggons were to set afire as soon as they came near the elephants and then rain blows with them upon the trunks and faces of the beasts. Furthermore, standing on the waggons, which were four-wheeled, were many also of the light-armed troops — bowmen, hurlers of stones and slingers who threw iron caltrops; and on the ground beside the waggons there were still more men.

8 This was the battle order of the two armies that had taken the field. The forces on the king's side numbered 70,000 foot, of whom the Greeks who had crossed the Ionian gulf amounted to 16,000; on the Roman side there were more than 70,000, about 20,000 of them being from Rome itself. Of horse the Romans had about 8,000, while Pyrrhus had slightly more, as well as nineteen elephants.

2 When the signals for battle were hoisted, the soldiers first chanted their war songs, and then, p393raising the battle-cry to Enyalius, advanced to the fray, engaged and fought, displaying all their skill in arms. The cavalry stationed upon both wings, knowing beforehand in what tactics they had the advantage over the enemy, resorted to those tactics, the Romans to a hand-to‑hand, stationary combat, and the Greek horse to flanking and deploying manoeuvres. 2 The Romans, when they were pursued by the Greeks, would wheel their horses about, and checking them with the reins, would fight an infantry battle; the Greeks, when they perceived that the Romans were their equals in combat, would swerve to the right and countermarching past one another, would whirl about their horses once more to face forward, and applying the spurs, would charge the enemy's ranks. 3 Such was the character of the cavalry battle. The fighting of the infantry was in some respects similar to it, in other ways different; it was similar on the whole, but different in details. For the right wing of each army was the stronger one, the left being weaker. Nevertheless, neither side turned its back ignominiously to the foe, but both maintained good order, remaining with the standards and protecting themselves with their shields while gradually falling back. 4 Those who distinguished themselves for valour were, on the king's side, the Macedonians, who repulsed the first Roman legion and the Latins arrayed with it; and, on the Roman side, those who constituted the second2º legion and were opposed to the Molossians, Thesprotians p395and Chaonians. When the king had ordered the elephants seem to be led up to the part of the line that was in difficulties, the Romans mounted on the pole-bearing waggons, upon learning of the approach of the beasts, drove to meet them. 5 At first they checked the onrush of the beasts, smiting them with their engines and turning the fire-bearing grapnels into their eyes. Then, when the men stationed in their towers no longer drove the beasts forward, but hurled their spears down from above, and the light-armed troops cut through the wattled screens surrounding the waggons and hamstrung the oxen, the men at the machines, leaping down from their cars, fled for refuge to the nearest infantry and caused great confusion among them. 6 The Lucanians and Bruttians arrayed in the middle of the king's battle-line, after fighting for no great while, turned to flight when repulsed by the fourth3 Roman legion. When once these gave way and their part of the line was broken through, the Tarentines also, who had their station next to them, did not remain, but they too turned their backs to the enemy and fled.

3 When King Pyrrhus learned that the Lucanians, Bruttians and Tarentines were in headlong flight and that their part of the line was disrupted, he turned a part of the squadron that was with him over to other commanders, and from the right wing sent other horsemen, as many as he thought would be sufficient, p397as reinforcements to those who were being pursued by the Romans. But during the time that this was going on, there was a manifest intervention of the divine power on the side of the Romans. 2 Some of the Daunians, it seems, from the city of Argyrippa, which they now call Arpi, four thousand foot and some four hundred horse who had been sent to the assistance of the consuls, arrived near the royal camp while proceeding by mere chance along the road that led in the enemy's rear, and saw the plain full of men. After stopping there a short while and indulging in all manner of speculations, they decided not to descend from the heights and take part in the battle, since they did not know either where there was a friendly force or where a hostile one, nor could conjecture in what place they should take their stand in order to render some aid to their allies; and they thought it would be best to surround and destroy the enemy's camp, since not only would they themselves get much fine booty if they should capture the baggage, but they would also cause much confusion to their enemies if these should see their camp suddenly ablaze. (The scene of the battle was not more than twenty stades distant.) 3 Having come to this decision and having learned from some prisoners, who had been captured when they had gone out to gather wood, that only a very few were guarding the camp, they attacked them from all sides. Pyrrhus, learning of this through the report of a cavalryman who, when the siege of the camp began, drove his horse through the enemy's lines, and applying the spurs, was soon at p399hand, decided to keep the rest of his forces in the plain and not to recall or disturb the phalanx, but sent the elephants and the boldest of the horse, carefully selected, as reinforcements for the camp. 4 But while these were still on the way, the camp was suddenly taken and set on fire.

Those who had accomplished this feat, upon learning that the troops sent by the king were coming down from the heights against them, fled to the summit of a hill which could not easily be ascended by either the beasts or the horses. 5 The king's troops, having arrived too late to be of assistance, turned against the Romans of the third and fourth legions, who had advanced far ahead of the others after routing the foes who faced them. But the Romans, becoming aware in advance of their approach, ran up to a lofty and thickly-wooded spot and arrayed themselves in battle order. 6 The elephants, accordingly, being unable to ascend the height, caused them no harm, nor did the squadrons of horse; but the bowmen and slingers, hurling their missiles from all sides, wounded and destroyed many of them. When the commanders became aware of what was going on there, Pyrrhus sent, from his line of infantry,4 the Athamanians p401and Acarnanians and some of the Samnites, while the Roman consul sent some squadrons of horse, since the foot needed such assistance. And at this same time a fresh battle took place there between the foot and horse and there was still greater slaughter.

7 Following the king's lead, the Roman consuls also recalled their troops when it was near sunset, and taking them across the river led them back to their camp as darkness was already coming on. The forces of Pyrrhus, having lost their tents, pack-animals and slaves, and all their baggage, encamped upon a height, where they spent the following night under the open sky, without either baggage or attendance and not well supplied with even the necessary food, so that many wounded men actually perished, when they might still have been saved had they received assistance and care. Such was the outcome of the second battle between the Romans and Pyrrhus, near the town of Asculum.

4 Rhegium suffered a calamity similar to that which had befallen Messana in Sicily, a calamity that illustrates the need of great precaution and forethought on the part of all cities. But it is necessary to state first the causes and excuses for the evils that befell this city. 2 When the Lucanians and Bruttians, having set out with numerous forces against Thurii, had ravaged its territory and were besieging the city after surrounding it with a palisade, and a force of Romans under the command of Fabricius the consul had been sent against them, the Rhegians, fearing that the barbarians would send an army against them p403also upon the departure of the Romans, and being suspicious of the city of Tarentum, begged Fabricius to leave a force in the city to guard against the sudden raids of the barbarians, and also in case there should be any unexpected hostile plot on the part of the Tarentines. And they received eight hundred Campanians and four hundred Sidicini, all under the command of Decius, a Campanian by birth. 3 This man, whenever he was lodged in the houses of the most prominent of the inhabitants, was entertained at splendid banquets in accordance with the hospitality due to guest; and when he beheld the splendid and costly appointments of many of the houses, he at first congratulated the Rhegians because of their prosperity, then envied them as being unworthy of it, and finally began to plot against them as enemies. 4 And taking as an accomplice of his secret designs his secretary, a crafty man and a deviser of every kind of mischief, he was advised5 by him to slay all the Rhegians and to seize their wealth, partly for himself and partly to distribute among his troops; for the man remarked that Messana had been taken in a similar fashion by the Mamertines a short time before.6 When he had been persuaded by them and had planned with him the manner of attack, he called to a council the tribunes and the most prominent soldiers; and after p405requesting them all to keep his remarks secret, he said that a grave danger overhung him, one that required very great and prompt precautions, since the occasion, he declared, did not permit of delay. For the most prominent Rhegians, he said, having learned of Pyrrhus' crossing, were secretly sending to him, promising to put the garrison to the sword and to hand over the city to him. 5 While he was still uttering these words, a man who had been suborned for the purpose appeared, covered with dust as if from a journey and bearing a letter, composed by Decius himself but purporting to be from a personal friend of his, in which it was revealed that the king was intending to send five hundred soldiers to Rhegium to take over the city, the inhabitants having promised to open their gates to them. 6 Some state that the bearer of the letter had been sent in earnest by Fabricius the consul, and that the letter contained the information which I have just given and urged Decius to forestall the Rhegians. Both reports are reasonable. These things he revealed to those who were present at the council; and as soon as it was night, the tribunes, having first told the other soldiers what they were intending to do, went to the houses of the Rhegians, and finding some of them still feasting and others asleep, they slew them at their own firesides, though the Rhegians entreated them and grovelled at their feet and demanded to know why they were thus treated; and they spared neither age nor rank. 7 After slaughtering the men they committed a still more outrageous crime: portioning out the wives and virgin daughters of their p407hosts, they forcibly lay with these women whose very fathers and husbands they had slain before their very eyes. 8 Decius from the commander of a garrison had thus become a tyrant of Rhegium; and reasoning that he would have to pay the penalty to the Romans for what he had done, he made an alliance with the Campanians who were in possession of Messana, the most powerful of the cities in Sicily, meanwhile keeping the city of Rhegium under strict guard.

5 The senate, upon learning from those who had escaped destruction the calamity that had befallen the Rhegians, did not delay even for a moment, but sent out the general in the city at the head of another army which had just been enrolled. 2 Forestalling the arrival of the Romans, however, Divine Providence took vengeance upon Decius, the commander of the garrison, for his impious schemes by punishing in the most vital parts of his body, inflicting upon his eyes a malady that caused excruciating pains. In his anxiety to cure this malady he sent he says a physician from Messana, Dexicrates by name, learning by inquiry that he was the best of the physicians of the day, but unaware that he was a Rhegian by birth. This man, having come to Rhegium, anointed his eyes with a caustic remedy and bade him endure the pains until he himself should return; then, going down to the sea, he boarded the ferry-boat that had been got ready for him and, before anyone was aware of his action, sailed back to Messana. 3 For a time Decius, although suffering dreadful pains while his sight was being burned out, nevertheless endured it, while p409waiting for the physician; but when much time had passed and he was unable longer to endure the excruciating pains, he wiped off the ointment and, opening his eyes, realized that the orbs had been burned out, and from that time he continued to be blind. After holding out for a few days he fell into the hands of the Romans, having been arrested by his own men; 4 for some, believing this was the way to clear themselves, opened their city to the general and delivered up Decius in chains to Fabricius. The latter restored the city to the Rhegians who survived, and ordering the guards to leave everything where it was, he led them away carrying nothing but their arms; 5 then, choosing out the most prominent of their number, those whom the others declared to be accomplices in the nefarious plot, he bright them in chains to Rome. There, after being scourged with whips in the Forum, as was the established usage in the case of malefactors, the prisoners were put to death by having their heads cut off with an axe — all except Decius and the secretary, who, having outwitted their guards or having bribed them with money to permit them to escape an ignominious death, made away with themselves. So much on this subject.

6 (19.2) Pyrrhus himself, having uttered the Homeric lines which Hector is represented by the poet as speaking to Ajax, as if they had been addressed by the Romans to himself,

I would not smite thee, then, who art so brave,
By stealth, but openly, if so I may.7
p411 and afterwards declaring that he had probably been wrong in planning his war against people who were more pious than the Greeks and more just,8 said he saw only one honourable and advantageous way of ending the war, and that was to make friends of them instead of enemies, beginning with some great act of kindness.

2 (3) After ordering the Roman prisoners to be brought forward and giving to all of them raiment befitting free persons and expense money for the journey, he bade them remember how he had treated them and to tell all the others, and what they should come to their own cities, to strive with all zeal to make those cities friendly to him.

3 A certain irresistible sight, indeed, has the gold of a king, and no defence has been found by mortals against this weapon.

7 (19.4) Cleinias of Croton, when he was tyrant, took away from the cities their freedom after he had gathered together fugitives from every quarter and freed the slaves; and having strengthened his tyranny with their aid, he either slew or expelled from the city the most prominent of the Crotoniats. Anaxilas seized the acropolis of the Rhegians and, after holding it as long as he lived, handed down the rule to Leophron, his son. Others too, following their example, founded dynasties in the various cities and thus brought everything to ruin. 2 (5) But the final p413and worst mischief of all that came to any of the cities was the tyranny of Dionysius, who had mastered Sicily. For he crossed into Italy against the Rhegians at the summons of the Locrians, with whom the Rhegians were at odds; and when the Italiots united against him with large forces, he joined battle, slew many and took by storm two of their cities. 3 Then make gate another crossing later on, he removed the people of Hipponium from their native land, taking them to Sicily; and capturing Croton and Rhegium, he continued to lord it over those cities for twelve years. Then some, who stood in dread of the tyrant, entrusted themselves to the barbarians, while others, who were being warred upon by the barbarians, handed over their cities to the tyrant; and no matter at whose hands they were suffering, they were always wretched and discontented, so that, like a euripus,9 they veered this way and that according to the fortunes that befell them.

8 (19.6) Pyrrhus crossed for the second time into Italy, since matters were not going to his liking in Sicily, inasmuch as it had become evident to the chief cities that his leadership was not that of a king but of a despot. For after he had been brought into Syracuse by Sosistratus, the ruler of the city at that time, and by Thoenon, the commander of the garrison, and had received from them the money in the treasury10 and some two hundred bronze-beaked ships, and after he had brought under his power all Sicily with the exception of the city of Lilybaeum, the one city p415which the Carthaginians still held, he assumed the arrogance of a tyrant.

(7) For Pyrrhus took away the estates of Agathocles' relatives and friends from those who had received them at that ruler's hands and presented them to his own friends, and he assigned the chief magistracies in the cities to his own shield-bearers and captains, not in accordance with the local laws of each city nor for the customary period, but as was pleasing to him. 2 Lawsuits and controversies and all the other matters of civil administration he would in some cases decide himself and in other cases would refer them either for reversal or for determination to those who hung about the court, men who had an eye for nothing except making gains and squandering wealth in the pursuit of luxury. Because of all this he was burdensome to the cities which had received him and was hated by them. 3 (8) Perceiving that many people were already secretly hostile to him, he introduced garrisons into the cities, taking as an excuse the war threatening from the Carthaginians; and arresting the most prominent men in each city, he put them to death, falsely alleging that he had discovered plots and treasonable acts. Among these was Thoenon, the commander of the garrison, who was admitted by all to have shown the greatest ardour and zeal in aiding him to cross over and take possession of the island; for he had gone to meet him at the head of a naval squadron and had turned over to him the Island of Syracuse, of which he himself had the command. 4 When, however, Pyrrhus attempted to arrest Sosistratus also, he was disappointed; for the man had p417become aware of his intention and had fled from the city. Furthermore, when matters had begun to be unsettled, the city of Carthage also, believing it had found an opportunity suitable for the recovery of places it had lost, sent an army against the island.

9 (19.9) Observing that Pyrrhus was embarrassed and was seeking funds from every possible source, the worst and most depraved of his friends, Euegorus, the son of Theodorus, Balacrus, the son of Nicander, and Deinarchus, the son of Nicias, followers of godless and accursed doctrines, suggested an impious source for the raising of funds, namely, to open up the sacred treasures of Persephonê. 2 For there was a holy temple in this city11 that contained much wealth,12 guarded and untouched from the earliest times; included in this there was an unfathomed quantity of gold, buried in the earth out of sight of the multitude. Pyrrhus, misled by the se flatterers and because of his necessity that was stronger than any scruples,13 employed as his agents in the sacrilege the men who had made the proposal; and placing the gold plundered from the temple in ships, he sent it along with his other funds to Tarentum, having now become filled with great cheer.

(10) But a just Providence showed its power. For, p419though the ships, upon putting out from the harbour, found a land breeze and made progress, an adverse wind sprang up, and holding through the entire night, sank some of them, drove others into the Sicilian strait, and, in the case of those in which the offerings and the gold yielded by the offerings was being transported, drove them ashore on the beaches of Locri. The men on board the ships were submerged and perished in the backwash of the waves, and the sacred moneys, when the ships broke up, were cast ashore on the sand-banks nearest to Locri. 2 ºThe king, terror-stricken, restored all the ornaments and treasures to the goddess, hoping thereby to appease her wrath;

The fool, nor wist that she would ne'er give ear:
For not so quickly do the deathless gods
Their purpose change.14
as Homer has said. 3 Nay, since he had dared to lay hands on the sacred moneys and to pledge them as a war fund, the divinity brought his intention to naught, in order that he might serve as an example and lesson to all men who should come after him.

10 (19.11) It was for this reason that Pyrrhus was defeated by the Romans also in a battle to the finish. For it was no mean or untrained army that he had, but the mightiest of those then in existence among the Greeks and one that had fought a great many wars; nor was it a small body of men that was then arrayed under him, but even three times as large as his adversary's, nor was its general any chance leader, but rather the man whom all admit to have been the p421greatest of all the generals who flourish at that same period; 2 nor was it any inequality in the position he occupied, nor the sudden arrival of reinforcements for the other side, nor any other mischance or unexpected excuse for failure that ruined the cause of Pyrrhus, but rather the wrath of the goddess whose sanctity had been violated, a wrath of which not even Pyrrhus himself was unaware, as Proxenus the historian relates and as Pyrrhus himself records in his own memoirs.

11 (19.12) It was bound the happen, as might have been expected, that hoplites burdened with helmets, breastplates and shields and advancing against hilly positions by long trails that were not even used by people but were mere goat-paths through woods and crags, would keep no order and, even before the enemy came in sight, would be weakened in body by thirst and fatigue.

2 Those who fight in close combat with cavalry spears grasped by the middle with both hands and who usually save the day in battles are called principes by the Romans.

12 (19.13) During the night in which Pyrrhus was intending to lead his army against the hill to attack the Roman camp secretly it seemed to him in his dreams that most of his teeth fell out and a quantity of blood poured from his mouth. 2 Disturbed by this vision and divining that some great misfortune would ensue, since he had already on an earlier occasion beheld a similar vision in a dream and some dire disaster had followed, he wished to hold back p423that day, but was not strong enough to defeat fate; for his friends opposed the delay and demanded that he should not let the favourable opportunity slip from his grasp.

3 (14) When Pyrrhus and those with him had ascended along with the elephants, and the Romans became aware of it, they wounded an elephant cub, which caused great confusion and flight among the Greeks. The Romans killed two elephants, and hemming eight others in a place that had no outlet, took them alive when the Indian mahouts surrendered them; and they wrought great slaughter among the soldiers.

13 (20.1) The consul Fabricius, having become censor, expelled from the senatorial body a man who had been honoured with two consulships and one dictatorship, Publius Cornelius Rufinus, because he was believed to have been the first to be extravagant in supplying himself with silver goblets, having acquired ten pounds' weight of them; this is a little more than eight Attic minae.

2 (2) The Athenians gained repute because they punished as harmful to the state the indolent and idle who followed no useful pursuits, and the Lacedaemonians because they permitted their oldest men to beat with their canes such of the citizens as were disorderly in any public place whatever; but for what took place in the homes they took no thought or precaution, holding that each man's house-door marked the boundary within which he was free to live as he pleased. 3 (3) But the Romans, throwing open every house and extending the authority of the censors even to the bed-chamber, made that office p425the overseer and guardian of everything that took place in the homes; for they believed that neither a master should be cruel in the punishments meted out to his slaves, nor a father unduly harsh or lenient in the training of his children, nor a husband unjust in his partnership with his lawfully-wedded wife, nor children disobedient toward their aged parents, nor should own brothers strive for more than their equal share, and they thought there should be no banquets and revels lasting all night long, no wantonness and corrupting of youthful comrades, no neglect of the ancestral honours of sacrifices and funerals, no any other of the things that are done contrary to propriety and the advantage of the state.

They plundered the possessions of the citizens on the ground that they were affecting the ways of a king.

14 (20.4) Numerius Fabius Pictor, Quintus Fabius Maximus and Quintus Ogulnius, who had gone as ambassadors to Ptolemy Philadelphus, the second to rule Egypt after the Macedonian Alexander, and had been honoured by him with individual gifts, 2 upon returning to Rome not only reported all that they had accomplished during their absence, but also turned over to the public treasury the gifts which they had received from the king. But the senate, admiring the men for all their achievements, did not permit them to turn the royal gifts over to the state, but allowed them to take them back to their homes as rewards of merit and decorations for their descendants.

15 (20.5) The Bruttians, after submitting willingly to the Romans, delivered up to them one-half p427of their mountainous district, called Sila, which is full of timber suitable for the building of houses and ships and every other kind of construction. For much fir grows there, towering to the sky, much black poplar, much pitch pine, beech, stone pine, wide-spreading oak, ash trees enriched by the streams flowing through their midst, and every other kind of tree with densely-intertwined branches that keep the mountain in shadow throughout the whole day.

2 (6) Of this timber, that which grows nearest the sea and rivers is felled at the root and taken down in full lengths to the nearest harbours, sufficient in quantity to serve all Italy for shipbuilding and the construction of houses. That which grows inland from the sea and remote from rivers is cut up in sections for the making of oars, poles and all kinds of domestic implements and equipment, and is carried out on men's shoulders. But the largest and most resinous part of the timber is made into pitch, furnishing the most fragrant and sweetest pitch known to us, the kind called Bruttian, from the farming out of which the Roman people receive large revenues every year.

16 (20.7) There was a second uprising in Rhegium, on the part of the garrison of the Romans and allies which had been left there, and it resulted in the slaying and exile of many persons. To punish these rebels one of the consuls, Gaius Genucius, led out the army. After becoming master of the city, he restored their possessions to the keeping of the Rhegian exiles, and arresting those who had made the p429attack upon the city, he took them back in chains to Rome. The senate and the people were so enraged and indignant at them that no moderate sentiment was expressed concerning them, but by the vote of all the tribes sentence was passed against all the accused that they should die in the manner prescribed by the laws for malefactors. 2 (8) When the decree concerning their punishment had been ratified, stakes were fixed in the Forum and the men, being brought forward three hundred at one time, were bound naked to the stakes, with their elbows bent behind them. Then, after they had been scourged with whips in the sight of all, the back tendons of their necks were cut with an axe. After them another three hundred were destroyed, and then other groups of like size, a total of forty-five hundred in all. And they did not even receive burial, but were dragged out of the Forum into an open space before the city, where they were torn asunder by birds and dogs.

17 (20.9) The multitude of the needy, who had no thought for what was honourable and just, flocked together, misled by a certain Samnite. And at first they led a life of hardship15 in the open upon the mountains; but when at length they seemed to have become more numerous and to be adequate for battle, they seized a strong city and with that as their base plundered all the country round about. 2 Against these men the consuls led forth an army, and having without much difficulty taken their city, p431they scourged with rods and put to death the authors of the revolt and sold the rest as booty. It chanced that the land had been sold the previous year along with the other conquests of the spear, and the money realized from its price had been divided among the citizens.
P.S: Me gjasë Dionis Halikarnasi më shumë ngatërron sesa kthjellon, sepse bie në kundërshtim me të vërtetat e autorëve të tjerë të lashtësisë:
-Etolët, Akarnanët dhe Athamanët i kanë portretizur herë si gjysmë-grek, herë si Barbarë e madje edhe si Ilirë (Stefan Bizantini e konsideron Athamaninë krahinë të Ilirisë
-Maqedonasit janë konsideruar rregulisht si jo-grekë
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

Socio
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Posts: 693
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diskutim 28

#9

Post by Socio » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:41 pm

Po ju vete e thate 'Greqia fillon me Akarnanine. Greke jane ato fise qe fillojne aty !
alfeko sukaraku wrote:po...ne kohen e Strabonit edhe jo ne kohen e Pirros.
Dmth, nuk e dike qe edhe ne kohen e Pirros Greket fillonin aty si dhe dallonin nga Epirotet, bile ky dallim eshte evidentuar edhe shume kohe para se te lindte Pirro !!!

Thycidides shkroi 'Peloponesian War' me 431 BC , me shume se 100 vjet para lindjes se Pirros(319 BC)

Lexo nje pasazh te kesaj vepre ku dallohen Epirotet nga Greket qysh ne ate kohe.
Of Hellenes he had in his army Ambraciots, Leucadians, Anactorians, and the thousand Peloponnesians whom he brought with him, where as of Barbarians a thousand Chaonians, who, having no king, were led by Photyus and Nicanor, both of the governing family and holding the presidency for a year. With the Chaonians came the Thesprotians, who, like them, have no king. A Molossian and Atintanian force was led by Sabylinthus, the guardian of Tharypas the king, who was still a minor...
http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/thucydi ... et=2.79-83


Pse bre vella jep komente qe nuk kane te bejne me tema fare ?!!.

Cka na intereson neve se cilet jane Helenet apo si u krijuan ata, nga Pellasget apo jo, ne kohera qe nuk dihet per to !!. A nuk eshte me me rendesi se Helenet ne kohen e Thucididit e edhe me perpara ishin fise me ndergjegje etnike dhe gjuhe te vecante nga Epirotet. A nuk eshte me me rendesi ky dallim mes tyre !
Ky dallim ka krijuar edhe kufirin etnik natyror mes Heleneve dhe Epiroteve (i njejti me pikenisje Arten) qe ka ekzistuar me mijera vjet. Ky kufi u prish vetem ne shek 20 me krijimin e Greqise Moderne nga Perendimi.
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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alfeko sukaraku
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Posts: 1827
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diskutim29

#10

Post by alfeko sukaraku » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:34 pm

Socio wrote:
Po ju vete e thate 'Greqia fillon me Akarnanine. Greke jane ato fise qe fillojne aty !
alfeko sukaraku wrote:po...ne kohen e Strabonit edhe jo ne kohen e Pirros.
Dmth, nuk e dike qe edhe ne kohen e Pirros Greket fillonin aty si dhe dallonin nga Epirotet, bile ky dallim eshte evidentuar edhe shume kohe para se te lindte Pirro !!!

Thycidides shkroi 'Peloponesian War' me 431 BC , me shume se 100 vjet para lindjes se Pirros(319 BC)

Lexo nje pasazh te kesaj vepre ku dallohen Epirotet nga Greket qysh ne ate kohe.
Of Hellenes he had in his army Ambraciots, Leucadians, Anactorians, and the thousand Peloponnesians whom he brought with him, where as of Barbarians a thousand Chaonians, who, having no king, were led by Photyus and Nicanor, both of the governing family and holding the presidency for a year. With the Chaonians came the Thesprotians, who, like them, have no king. A Molossian and Atintanian force was led by Sabylinthus, the guardian of Tharypas the king, who was still a minor...
http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/thucydi ... et=2.79-83


Pse bre vella jep komente qe nuk kane te bejne me tema fare ?!!.

Cka na intereson neve se cilet jane Helenet apo si u krijuan ata, nga Pellasget apo jo, ne kohera qe nuk dihet per to !!. A nuk eshte me me rendesi se Helenet ne kohen e Thucididit e edhe me perpara ishin fise me ndergjegje etnike dhe gjuhe te vecante nga Epirotet. A nuk eshte me me rendesi ky dallim mes tyre !
Ky dallim ka krijuar edhe kufirin etnik natyror mes Heleneve dhe Epiroteve (i njejti me pikenisje Arten) qe ka ekzistuar me mijera vjet. Ky kufi u prish vetem ne shek 20 me krijimin e Greqise Moderne nga Perendimi.
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alfeko sukaraku
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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE

#11

Post by alfeko sukaraku » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:19 pm

Socio wrote:
Po ju vete e thate 'Greqia fillon me Akarnanine. Greke jane ato fise qe fillojne aty !
alfeko sukaraku wrote:po...ne kohen e Strabonit edhe jo ne kohen e Pirros.
Dmth, nuk e dike qe edhe ne kohen e Pirros Greket fillonin aty si dhe dallonin nga Epirotet, bile ky dallim eshte evidentuar edhe shume kohe para se te lindte Pirro !!!

Thycidides shkroi 'Peloponesian War' me 431 BC , me shume se 100 vjet para lindjes se Pirros(319 BC)

Lexo nje pasazh te kesaj vepre ku dallohen Epirotet nga Greket qysh ne ate kohe.
Of Hellenes he had in his army Ambraciots, Leucadians, Anactorians, and the thousand Peloponnesians whom he brought with him, where as of Barbarians a thousand Chaonians, who, having no king, were led by Photyus and Nicanor, both of the governing family and holding the presidency for a year. With the Chaonians came the Thesprotians, who, like them, have no king. A Molossian and Atintanian force was led by Sabylinthus, the guardian of Tharypas the king, who was still a minor...
http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/thucydi ... et=2.79-83


Pse bre vella jep komente qe nuk kane te bejne me tema fare ?!!.

Cka na intereson neve se cilet jane Helenet apo si u krijuan ata, nga Pellasget apo jo, ne kohera qe nuk dihet per to !!. A nuk eshte me me rendesi se Helenet ne kohen e Thucididit e edhe me perpara ishin fise me ndergjegje etnike dhe gjuhe te vecante nga Epirotet. A nuk eshte me me rendesi ky dallim mes tyre !
Ky dallim ka krijuar edhe kufirin etnik natyror mes Heleneve dhe Epiroteve (i njejti me pikenisje Arten) qe ka ekzistuar me mijera vjet. Ky kufi u prish vetem ne shek 20 me krijimin e Greqise Moderne nga Perendimi.
edhe Homeri "flet" per greket ne 1300 p e s , por greket nuk vertetohen asgjekundi ne ate koha..apo ke ndonje kundershtim ti?
KOHA ESHTE E MASKARENJVE/POR ATDHEU I SHQIPETRAVE

Socio
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diskutimi30

#12

Post by Socio » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:34 am

alfeko sukaraku wrote:
Socio wrote:
Po ju vete e thate 'Greqia fillon me Akarnanine. Greke jane ato fise qe fillojne aty !
alfeko sukaraku wrote:po...ne kohen e Strabonit edhe jo ne kohen e Pirros.
Dmth, nuk e dike qe edhe ne kohen e Pirros Greket fillonin aty si dhe dallonin nga Epirotet, bile ky dallim eshte evidentuar edhe shume kohe para se te lindte Pirro !!!

Thycidides shkroi 'Peloponesian War' me 431 BC , me shume se 100 vjet para lindjes se Pirros(319 BC)

Lexo nje pasazh te kesaj vepre ku dallohen Epirotet nga Greket qysh ne ate kohe.
Of Hellenes he had in his army Ambraciots, Leucadians, Anactorians, and the thousand Peloponnesians whom he brought with him, where as of Barbarians a thousand Chaonians, who, having no king, were led by Photyus and Nicanor, both of the governing family and holding the presidency for a year. With the Chaonians came the Thesprotians, who, like them, have no king. A Molossian and Atintanian force was led by Sabylinthus, the guardian of Tharypas the king, who was still a minor...
http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/thucydi ... et=2.79-83


Pse bre vella jep komente qe nuk kane te bejne me tema fare ?!!.

Cka na intereson neve se cilet jane Helenet apo si u krijuan ata, nga Pellasget apo jo, ne kohera qe nuk dihet per to !!. A nuk eshte me me rendesi se Helenet ne kohen e Thucididit e edhe me perpara ishin fise me ndergjegje etnike dhe gjuhe te vecante nga Epirotet. A nuk eshte me me rendesi ky dallim mes tyre !
Ky dallim ka krijuar edhe kufirin etnik natyror mes Heleneve dhe Epiroteve (i njejti me pikenisje Arten) qe ka ekzistuar me mijera vjet. Ky kufi u prish vetem ne shek 20 me krijimin e Greqise Moderne nga Perendimi.
edhe Homeri "flet" per greket ne 1300 p e s , por greket nuk vertetohen asgjekundi ne ate koha..apo ke ndonje kundershtim ti?
Po si nuk kam ! Homeri permend Greket, apo jo !! Nese nuk ka vertetime ndaj ekzistences se tyre ne ate kohe kjo nuk do te thote se ata nuk ekzistonin ne ate kohe apo jo ? Ata mund te kishin qene ende te rinje dhe jo te famshem, apo jo ?!!
Nuk mund ta injorojme Homerin apo jo ?!!

Dhe kjo perputhet edhe me Herodotin;
The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians.
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE

#13

Post by Socio » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:48 am

Zeus10 wrote:
ALBPelasgian wrote:Zeus, a mund të përdoret ky argument kundër propagandës Greke? Ky pasazh i Herodotit nuk i numëron për Greke gjithë ata në veri të lumit Akeron për shkak se asnjëri nuk muarën pjesë në luftërat kundër-persiane (kurse gabimisht e lë Thesprotinë në sferën 'greke') ndërkaq, prej krejt popujve (fiseve) të Epirit vetëm njerëzit e Krotonit pretendonin preardhje akeje. A do të mund ta përdornim këtë si provë?


47. These all who have been named dwelt inside the land of the Thesprotians and the river Acheron; for the Thesprotians border upon the land of the Amprakiots and Leucadians, and these were they who came from the greatest distance to serve: but of those who dwell outside these limits the men of Croton were the only people who came to the assistance of Hellas in her danger; and these sent one ship, of whom the commander was Phaÿlos, a man who had three times won victories at the Pythian games. Now the men of Croton are by descent Achaians.

47. [1] οὗτοι μὲν ἅπαντες ἐντὸς οἰκημένοι Θεσπρωτῶν καὶ Ἀχέροντος ποταμοῦ ἐστρατεύοντο· Θεσπρωτοὶ γὰρ εἰσὶ ὁμουρέοντες Ἀμπρακιώτῃσι καὶ Λευκαδίοισι, οἳ ἐξ ἐσχατέων χωρέων ἐστρατεύοντο. τῶν δὲ ἐκτὸς τούτων οἰκημένων Κροτωνιῆται μοῦνοι ἦσαν οἳ ἐβοήθησαν τῇ Ἑλλάδι κινδυνευούσῃ μιῇ νηί, τῆς ἦρχε ἀνὴρ τρὶς πυθιονίκης Φάυλλος· Κροτωνιῆται δὲ γένος εἰσὶ Ἀχαιοί.
Mendoj se jo. Rreshtimi neper luftera perbri atij ose ketij ""kombi"", nuk behej mbi bazen e atdhedashurise, sepse ky koncept as nuk egzistonte atehere, por ne baze te interesave te sundonjesve. Une po te marre si shembull, vetem faktin se mercenaret greke ne ushtrine persiane, ishin me shume si numer se sa greket ne ushtrine Aleksandriane, kur ata u perplasen se bashku. Eshte nje kurth i madh barazimi i konceptit "komb" te lashtesise me ate qe ne kuptojme sot. Per me teper Herodoti eshte autori me kontradiktor ne bote per tu cituar, dhe keshtu me i papershtatshmi.
Zeus, une mendoj se rreshtimi i madh i Grekeve ne ushtrine Persiane ka te beje me ndjenjen e roberise dhe urrejtjen qe ata kishin ndaj pushtuesit Maqedon. Mos te harrojme jo shume vite me pare Greket luftuan kunder Maqedoneve dhe u munden nga ata ne beteja te pergjakshme. Vete Philipi dogji me dhjetra vendbanime Greke. Motoja; 'Armiku i armikut tim eshte miku im' me se miri i pergjigjet veprimit te Grekeve.
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

Socio
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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE

#14

Post by Socio » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:12 am

Zeus10 wrote:Ky eshte burimi i gjuhes te kombit te sajuar grek.
Kombit te sajuar po, por te sajuar qe nga lashtesia !

Une ketu nuk mbaj anen e Grekeve asesi, por vetem ate shkencore.
Kam deshire te nisim nje debat te pergjithshem ne lidhje me konfuzionin qe mbreteron se a kishte etnicitet Grek ne lashtesi ?.
Poashtu kam pershtypje se shume prej nesh nuk e kane te carte se cka do te thote termi, 'etnicitet' !
Per ate para se te fillojme debatin deshiroj qe secili prej nesh (une i fundit) ta jap nje definim te ketij termi dhe pastaj fillojme debatin.

Faleminderit
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

Socio
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Re: EPIRI - PERKATESIA E TIJ SHQIPTARE per kosh

#15

Post by Socio » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:45 pm

alfeko sukaraku wrote:o moderator
si u gdhive mire je ore?
Mire jam une faleminderit shqipe.


Poashtu, faleminderit qe na mesove se Greke nuk ka pasur kurre para formimit te shtetit modern grek !! ;) :D
One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present

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