"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

Këtu mund të flisni mbi historinë tonë duke sjellë fakte historike për ndriçimin e asaj pjese të historisë mbi të cilen ka rënë harresa e kohës dhe e njerëzve.

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PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#1

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:15 am

PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

Tema synon qe te beje nje pergjithesim dhe permbledhje te materialeve qe i kemi ne lidhje me Pellazget prej kronikave te autoreve te mocem e deri te studiuesit modern.
Jane te mirseardhura gjithe ato materiale qe hedhin drite mbi pellazget dhe sidomos mbi LIDHJET PELLAZGO-ILIRE - SHQIPTARE!

Vazhdim te mbare me temen!

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Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#2

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:03 pm

Pellazget jane ata qe padrejtesisht quhen Greke te Vjeter, kurse ata qe ishin vertete Helene ishte nje fis i perzier pellazgo-ilire qe quhej Doriane ose Lacademonas, ku me te famshmit ishin Spartanet. Themeluesi i tyre ishte Yllos djali Herkulit, qe nga ana e tij ishte prijes i Hyllioneve ose P(b)yllioneve nje fis Ilir i famshem.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#3

Post by qiellikaltër » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:46 pm

Do doja te dija per lidhjen pellazgo-ilire. Jam cuditur kur kam lexuar ne librin e Kristo Frasherit qe i bente iliret te ardhur ne Ballkan.
"Du t'jem zot, n'timen tok,
dje dhe sot, sot e neser."

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#4

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:04 pm

qiellikaltër wrote:Do doja te dija per lidhjen pellazgo-ilire. Jam cuditur kur kam lexuar ne librin e Kristo Frasherit qe i bente iliret te ardhur ne Ballkan.
Dy jane burimet qe çdo studjues rinderton historine:

1. Rrefimi
2. Arkeologjia

Arkeologjia eshte me shkencore por nuk eshte e sigurte sa rrefimi. Problemi qendron se i vetmi burim rrëfimor jane rrefimet gjysemmitologjike te ""Grekeve te lashte"". Une keto i kam lexuar me hollesi(nese nuk jane te manipuluara), por ato nuk perkojne me zbulimet arkeologjike, sepse sipas arkeologjise qe nga veriu i Dalmacise deri ne Gjirin e Lakonise ka jetuar nje kulture, qe natyrisht ne zonen me klime te ngrohte pati kulmin e saj ne lashtesi.
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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#5

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:07 pm

qiellikaltër wrote:Do doja te dija per lidhjen pellazgo-ilire. Jam cuditur kur kam lexuar ne librin e Kristo Frasherit qe i bente iliret te ardhur ne Ballkan.
I nderuari qiellikalter! Kristo Frasheri si dhjetera e dhjetera studiues e akademik shqiptar me shume sesa vetehulmtues jane kopjues ose vazhdues te teorive te moderuara. Une nuk ia mohoj dot kurren e kurres vleren prej historiani te mirfillte Kristo Frasherit, sepse Kristoja eshte nje nga historianet (per mendimin tim) qe ka ditur ta ruaje objektivitetin prej historiani, per dallim nga shume e shume te tjere qe objektivitetin historik e humbasin ngaqe jane te shabllonizuar nga politika. Me aq sa kam lexuar nga Kristoja, ai eshte ekspert per historine mesjetare dhe moderne te shqiptareve, por jo edhe per ate te lashtesise. Ndaj, pohimet e Kristos per 'ardhacakerine' e ilireve ne Ballkan nuk jane arritur si rrjedhoje e punes hulumtuese te Kristos, por mbeshtetjes ne disa teori te moderuara qe bejne pjese ne kompleksin e absurdit te quajtur 'indo-europianizem'.

Po rikthehem tek pyetja juaj e pare; doni te dini per lidhjet pellazgo-ilire? S'pari, lidhja pellazgo-ilire mbeshtetet ne shtrirjen e dokumentuar te pellazgeve dhe perputhjen e kesaj shtrirjeje me kompleksin kulturoro-arkeologjik te Ballkanit/Egjeut, aty ku ne periudhen e mevonshme figurojne ne skenen historike dhe iliret.
The modern Albanians, who are probably the lineal descendants, more or less mixed, of the ancient Illyrians, the close congeners of the aborigines of Greece...
(~The Early Age of Greece~by Sir William Ridgeway, page 8
Poashtu, edhe mitologjia ofron nje mbeshtetje bukur te madhe per lidhjet pellazgo-ilire, per shkak se shume personazhe eponime historike jane here bij te Pellazgut ose te botes pellazge here te Ilirit. Kesisoj nje shembull e gjejme edhe tek kjo gjenalogji:

Image

Besoj qe nuk eshte e nevojshme ketu te rikujtohemi sesi Zeusi eshte pellazgjik, sesi tere tradita antike e identifikon Zeusin me pellazget etj. Ajo qe eshte e nevojshme te vihet ne pah eshte se Dardani - eponimi i fisit dardan(sipas Apianit) eshte biri i Ilirit. Pra, tere kjo perputhshmeri mitologjike i le vend dhe jep arsyeje pohimit per njejtesine pellazgo-ilire.

Kaq per sot, meqe nuk kam kohe me shume per te vazhduar pergjigjjen... -itsok-
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Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#6

Post by qiellikaltër » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:20 pm

Zeus10 dhe ALBpelasgian, faleminderit te dyve per pergjigjet.
E kuptoj ku do te dali Zeusi10 me mosperputhjen midis gjetjeve arkeologjike dhe rrefimeve per kohen e antikitetit.
Shume te permbledhura te dhenat e ALBpelasgian dhe shume domethenese njekohesisht.
Pres me interes zhvillimin e metejshem te temes.
"Du t'jem zot, n'timen tok,
dje dhe sot, sot e neser."

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#7

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:38 pm

Per here te pare ne nje tekst te lashte, pellazget jane permendur prej Homerit tek Iliada qe mbahet teksti me i vjeter ne Bote:

Homer, ILIADA 16.200

Δία δ' οὐ λάθε τερπικέραυνον
Ζεῦ ἄνα Δωδωναῖε Πελασγικὲ τηλόθι ναίων
Δωδώνης μεδέων δυσχειμέρου, ἀμφὶ δὲ Σελλοὶ
σοὶ ναίουσ' ὑποφῆται ἀνιπτόποδες χαμαιεῦναι,
Zeus ti qe leshon rrufete
Zeus o zot Dodonas Pellazgjik
Ti qe jeton larg
duke sunduar mbi Dodonen e ftohte
rrotull se ciles banojne Sellojte
interpretuesit e tu
njerez me kembe te palara
qe flene pertoke
Kjo eshte lutja e Akilit kryetrimit te ""grekeve"" te papermendur asnjehere prej Homerit, qe i lutet nje Perendie pellazge duke konfirmuar veten ne menyre te pakundershtueshme pellazg.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#8

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:51 pm

Eshte po Homeri i cili ne kengen

Homer, Iliad 2, rreshti 840 - 843

permend nje fraksion te pellazgeve qe kesaj rradhe luftojne ne krah te Trojaneve:

Ἱππόθοος δ᾽άγε φῦλα Πελασγῶν ἐγχεσιμώρων,
τῶν οἳ Λάρισαν ἐριβώλακα ναιετάασκον·
τῶν ἦρχ᾽Ἱππόθοός τε Πύλαιός τ᾽, ὄζος Ἂρηος,
υἷε δύω Λήθοιο Πελασγοῦ Τευταμίδαο.

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Ipothosi udhehiqte pellazget heshte-luftues
ata qe banojne ne Larisa me token pjellore
kishin si prijes Hipothosin dhe Pylajon pinjolle te Aresit
djeme te pellazgjikut Lethos, birit te Teutamit
Sic kuptohet kjo ishte nje lufte mes pellazgeve, nga njera ane pellazget e Peloponezit(te ashtequajturit ""greke) dhe ishujve Jonike, nga ana tjeter banoret e sterese kontinentale.
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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#9

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:00 pm

qiellikaltër wrote:Zeus10 dhe ALBpelasgian, faleminderit te dyve per pergjigjet.
E kuptoj ku do te dali Zeusi10 me mosperputhjen midis gjetjeve arkeologjike dhe rrefimeve per kohen e antikitetit.
Shume te permbledhura te dhenat e ALBpelasgian dhe shume domethenese njekohesisht.
Pres me interes zhvillimin e metejshem te temes.
Nje nga librat me te denje shkencor qe kane dalur nga studiuesit shqiptar eshte padyshim libri i historianit qe ka magjistruar ne France, Arsim Spahiu. Ky liber quhet 'Pellazget dhe Iliret ne Greqine e vjeter". Liber fenomenal qe duhet te sherbeje si piste studiuesve shqiptar (aq pak te interesuar ose aspak) per t'i zgjeruar dhe thelluar hulumtimet mbi Pellazget - keta parardhes te mohuar te shqiptareve.
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#10

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:08 pm

Çështë e verteta Homeri e permend 1 here fjalen Helenë dhe Helladë, por ne ate rast ata perfaqsojne vetem nje popullsi te vogel diku ne Peloponez(dhe jo ne Thesali, siç mundohen ta paraqese historiografia filogreke) e cila qe ne rreshtin e pare emertohet Pellazge:

Homer Iliade 2.653
τοὺς ὅσσοι τὸ Πελασγικὸν Ἄργος ἔναιον,
οἵ τ' Ἄλον οἵ τ' Ἀλόπην οἵ τε Τρηχῖνα* νέμοντο,
οἵ τ' εἶχον Φθίην ἠδ' Ἑλλάδα καλλιγύναικα,
Μυρμιδόνες δὲ καλεῦντο καὶ Ἕλληνες καὶ Ἀχαιοί,
τῶν αὖ πεντήκοντα νεῶν ἦν ἀρχὸς Ἀχιλλεύς.

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Tani te gjithe ata qe banojne ne Argosin PELLAZGJIK
duke zoteruar Alos Alope the Trakine
dhe qe banojne Phithine dhe Helladen
vendin e grave te bukura
dhe qe quheshin mirmidone, helene dhe akej
me 50 anije(out of 1000)
kishin si kapiten Akilin 
Pra dhe njeher konfirmohet qe Akili, Akejte, fisi i vogel te quajtur Helene, mirmidonet ishin te gjithe Pellazgjike.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#11

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:18 pm

Ja vlene te ndalemi pak te shpjegojme se ku jetonin pellazget e siperpermendur. Ata banonin ne terrotorin e pershkruar nga harta e meposhtme, dhe jo ne Thesali siç mundohen ta paraqesin greket dhe filogreket moderne, per ti dhene hapesire te pamerituar botes "helene" qe spekulohet ne kurriz te pellazgeve.

Image

Pra eshte Egjina ishulli i Aekut, gjyshit te Akilit dhe atit te te gjithe mirmidoneve dhe qendres panhelenike te luftetareve legjendare.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#12

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:33 pm

Sic e permenda dhe me siper, ai eshte i vetmi rast kur Homeri perdor fjalen Helene, nderkohe qe ushtrine sulmuese e ka identifikuar si akease(598 here) ose danase(138 here)ose ne disa raste (29) si argive per shkak se kryeqender e Akaise ishte Argosi pellazgjik. Le te japim nje shembull nga shume keto:

Homer, Odiseu 11.440
ὣς ἔφατ', αὐτὰρ ἐγώ μιν ἀμειβόμενος προσέειπον:
‘ὦ Ἀχιλεῦ Πηλῆος υἱέ, μέγα φέρτατ' Ἀχαιῶν,
ἦλθον Τειρεσίαο κατὰ χρέος, εἴ τινα βουλὴν
εἴποι, ὅπως Ἰθάκην ἐς παιπαλόεσσαν ἱκοίμην:
οὐ γάρ πω σχεδὸν ἦλθον Ἀχαιί̈δος, οὐδέ πω ἁμῆς
γῆς ἐπέβην, ἀλλ' αἰὲν ἔχω κακά. σεῖο δ', Ἀχιλλεῦ,
οὔ τις ἀνὴρ προπάροιθε μακάρτατος οὔτ' ἄρ' ὀπίσσω.
πρὶν μὲν γάρ σε ζωὸν ἐτίομεν ἶσα θεοῖσιν
Ἀργεῖοι, νῦν αὖτε μέγα κρατέεις νεκύεσσιν
ἐνθάδ' ἐών: τῷ μή τι θανὼν ἀκαχίζευ, Ἀχιλλεῦ

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..dhe atje u shfaq fantazma e Akilit birit te Peleut
si dhe ato te Patroklit dhe te pasoqit Antilokut
si dhe e Aiasit qe ne rradhen e luftetareve AKEAS
ishte me i miri pas te pashoqit Akil
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#13

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:52 pm

Nuk po ndalem gjate te shpjegoj, qe Akejte, Danajte dhe Pellazget perfaqsojne te njejtin popull, me emra te ndryshem, por do te perpiqem te shpjegoj nje nga tezat me te perhapura, ne kohen e Rilindjes Shqiptare per origjinen e pellazgeve. Sipas poetit tone te madh N. Frasherit, pellazget, kane ardhur prej Azise(dhe Egjiptit), dhe ne nje kohe shume te vjeter, ata sollen dhe besimin e tyre me ne qender DIAS-in(Zeusin), te cilin e instaluan ne Epir ne Dodone, vend ku ka lindur raca shqiptare, emrin(epirot) me te cilin ata njiheshin prej gjithe botes mbare ne Mesjete. Po sjell nje fragment nga :

Eskily, Suppliant 1.1

Χορός
Ζεὺς μὲν ἀφίκτωρ ἐπίδοι προφρόνως
στόλον ἡμέτερον νάιον ἀρθέντ'
ἀπὸ προστομίων λεπτοψαμάθων
Νείλου. Δίαν δὲ λιποῦσαι
χθόνα σύγχορτον Συρίᾳ φεύγομεν,
οὔτιν' ἐφ' αἵματι δημηλασίαν

Ndoshta Zeusi qe ruan te perulurit e tij besimtare
te shohe zemergjeresisht mbi njerezit tane
te cilet hipen mbi nje anije
dhe u nisen ne det prej reres se bute te Nilit
Per ne qe lame token e Zeusit
kullotat e se ciles jane ne kufi me Sirine
etj etj

jane ne favor te tezes qe populli qe themeloi kultin e Zeusit ne Epir, ka ardhur prej Azise.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#14

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:04 pm

Me poshte Eskili shpjegon se kush i kishte ngulur kete grup adhuronjeseh te Zeusit ketu:


Δαναὸς δὲ πατὴρ καὶ βούλαρχος
καὶ στασίαρχος τάδε πεσσονομῶν
κύδιστ' ἀχέων ἐπέκρανε,
φεύγειν ἀνέδην διὰ κῦμ' ἅλιον,
κέλσαι δ' Ἄργους γαῖαν, ὅθεν δὴ
γένος ἡμέτερον τῆς οἰστροδόνου
βοὸς ἐξ ἐπαφῆς κἀξ ἐπιπνοίας
Διὸς εὐχόμενον τετέλεσται.

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ishte Danai ati yne keshilltar 
dhe udheheqes i cili duke gjykuar drejte
si me te voglin rrezik te lundronim drejt
perkunder valeve me shpejtesi
dhe si perfundim ne gjetem brigjet e Argosit
Pra ishte Danai qe i solli ata/ato ne Argosin pellazgjik.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: PELLAZGET - POPULLI I PARE I MESDHEUT - CKA DIME PER TA?

#15

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:35 pm

Por Argosi kishte banoret e vet, qe quheshin PELLAZGE dhe mbreti i tyre nuk heziton ta quaj veten Pellazgu mbreti i tokes:

Eskili, Supliant 250


τοῦ γηγενοῦς γάρ εἰμ' ἐγὼ Παλαίχθονος
ἶνις Πελασγός, τῆσδε γῆς ἀρχηγέτης.
ἐμοῦ δ' ἄνακτος εὐλόγως ἐπώνυμον
γένος Πελασγῶν τήνδε καρποῦται χθόνα.
καὶ πᾶσαν αἶαν+, ἧς δι' ἁγνὸς ἔρχεται
Στρυμών, τὸ πρὸς δύνοντος ἡλίου, κρατῶ.
ὁρίζομαι δὲ τήν τε Περραίβων χθόνα,
Πίνδου τε τἀπέκεινα, Παιόνων πέλας,
ὄρη τε Δωδωναῖα. συντέμνει δ' ὅρος
ὑγρᾶς θαλάσσης: τῶνδε τἀπὶ τάδε κρατῶ.
αὐτῆς δὲ χώρας Ἀπίας πέδον τόδε
πάλαι κέκληται φωτὸς ἰατροῦ χάριν.

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Une jam Pellazgu i biri i PALE-KTONIT
i lindur prej tokes, zoti i kesaj toke
dhe gjithe raca ka marre emrin prej meje
pellazge
te cilet mbjellin kete toke
prej gjithe rajonit qe ku rrjedh Strimoni
dhe deri atje ku perendon dielli une jam zot
Brenda kufijve te mi shtrihet toka e Perrhaebejve
Tokat pertej Pindusit deri tek Paeonet
dhe kreshta e ngritur e Dodones
anet e lagura prej deteve jane kufijte e mi
Pra sipas ketij pershkrimi Pellazgu eshte mbret i gjithe Ballkanit deri tek Peonet, duke perfshire dhe Perrhaebejte. Po cfare jane keta te fundit?

APIANI, Luftrat Ilire III. 1.1

Ἰλλυριῷ δὲ παῖδας Ἐγχέλεα καὶ Αὐταριέα καὶ Δάρδανον καὶ Μαῖδον καὶ Ταύλαντα καὶ Περραιβὸν γενέσθαι, καὶ θυγατέρας Παρθὼ καὶ Δαορθὼ καὶ Δασσαρὼ καὶ ἑτέρας, ὅθεν εἰσὶ Ταυλάντιοί τε καὶ Περραιβοὶ καὶ Ἐγχέλεες καὶ Αὐταριεῖς καὶ Δάρδανοι καὶ Παρθηνοὶ καὶ Δασσαρήτιοι καὶ Δάρσιοι.
Iliri kishte 6 bijë, Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, and Perrhaebus, gjithashtu bija, Partho, Daortho, Dassaro, dhe te tjere, prej nga dolen Taulantet, Perrhaebejte, Enkelejte, Autarianet, Dardanet, Parthenet, Dasaretet, and the Darset. Autarieus kishte nje djale Pannonin, ose Paeonin, ky i fundit kishte femije, Scordiscus dhe Triballus, nga te cilet dolen kombe qe mbajne te njejtin emer.
Ky eshte djale i Ilirit sipas mitologjise, dhe ky eshte nje rast i jashtezakonshem qe BOTA ILIRE perputhet me ate PELLAZGE. Pra, nese Peraebet jane nje nga 6 fiset me te medha Ilire, ata jane dhe Pellazge njekohosisht, duke na konfirmuar qe kuptimi i etniciteit ne lashtesi, eshte shume me i ndryshem prej atij qe kemi sot.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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