ARBERIAONLINE

Duke lexuar njerin prej helenisteve me te medhenj te shek.XIX, gjermanin Niebuhr gjeta dicka qe me zgjoi dhjetera pikepyetje por qe nuk gjejne kollaj pergjigjje. Gjithcka sikur humbet ne detin e te panjohurave te krijuara nga dijetare te korroptuar, te cilet kane futur keqazi duart ne histori.

Niebuhr ne 'History of Rome' grish vemendjen per nje paralele midis "Graeaneve" te Peonise pellazgjike dhe 'Graiko've dodonas, emri i te cileve do te pergjithesohet per te shenjuar tere helenet klasik. Pa humbur kohe po paraqes te plote analizen e Nibuhr per ceshtjen qe na shqeteson:



An epitome of Niebuhr's History of Rome By Travers Twiss (sir.), Barthold Georg Niebuhr

Komente te tjera per Graneanet:




Ne disa nga perkthimet me te hershme te vepres se Tukididit jepet zakonisht kjo:

Beginning therefore with the Odrysians, he levied first those Thracians that inhabit on this side the mountains Haemus and Rhodope, as many as were of his own dominion, down to the shore of the Euxine Sea and the Hellespont. Then beyond Haemus he levied the Getes and all the nations between Ister and the Euxine Sea. The Getes and the people of those parts are borderers upon the Scythians and furnished as the Scythians are, all archers on horseback. He also drew forth many of those Scythians that inhabit the mountains and are free states, all swordsmen, and are called Dii, the greatest part of which are on the mountain Rhodope; whereof some he hired, and some went as voluntaries. He levied also the Agrianes and Laeaeans and all other the nations of Paeonia in his own dominion. These are the utmost bounds of his dominion, extending to the Graaeans and Laeaeans, nations of Paeonia, and to the river Strymon, which, rising out of the mountain Scomius, passeth through the territories of the Graaeans and Laeaeans, who make the bounds of his kingdom toward Paeonia and are subject only to their own laws. But on the part that lieth to the Triballians, who are also a free people, the Treres make the bound of his dominion, and the Tilataeans. These dwell on the north side of the mountain Scomius and reach westward as far as to the river Oscius, which cometh out of the same hill Nestus and Hebrus doth; a great and desert hill adjoining to Rhodope.

Origjinali qe gjeta ne "perseus" eshte si vijon:

ἀνίστησιν οὖν ἐκ τῶν Ὀδρυσῶν ὁρμώμενος πρῶτον μὲν τοὺς ἐντὸς τοῦ Αἵμου τε ὄρους καὶ τῆς Ῥοδόπης Θρᾷκας, ὅσων ἦρχε μέχρι θαλάσσης ἐς τὸν Εὔξεινόν τε πόντον καὶ τὸν Ἑλλήσποντον, ἔπειτα τοὺς ὑπερβάντι Αἷμον Γέτας καὶ ὅσα ἄλλα μέρη ἐντὸς τοῦ Ἴστρου ποταμοῦ πρὸς θάλασσαν μᾶλλον τὴν τοῦ Εὐξείνου πόντου κατῴκητο· εἰσὶ δ’ οἱ Γέται καὶ οἱ ταύτῃ ὅμοροί τε τοῖς Σκύθαις καὶ ὁμόσκευοι, πάντες ἱπποτοξόται. 2.96.2παρεκάλει δὲ καὶ τῶν ὀρεινῶν Θρᾳκῶν πολλοὺς τῶν αὐτονόμων καὶ μαχαιροφόρων, οἳ Δῖοι καλοῦνται, τὴν Ῥοδόπην οἱ πλεῖστοι οἰκοῦντες· καὶ τοὺς μὲν μισθῷ ἔπειθεν, οἱ δ’ ἐθελονταὶ ξυνηκολούθουν. 2.96.3ἀνίστη δὲ καὶ Ἀγριᾶνας καὶ Λαιαίους καὶ ἄλλα ὅσα ἔθνη Παιονικὰ ὧν ἦρχε καὶ ἔσχατοι τῆς ἀρχῆς οὗτοι ἦσαν· μέχρι γὰρ Λαιαίων Παιόνων καὶ τοῦ Στρυμόνος ποταμοῦ, ὃς ἐκ τοῦ Σκόμβρου ὄρους δι’ Ἀγριάνων καὶ Λαιαίων ῥεῖ, οὗ ὡρίζετο ἡ ἀρχὴ τὰ πρὸς Παίονας αὐτονόμους ἤδη. 2.96.4τὰ δὲ πρὸς Τριβαλλούς, καὶ τούτους αὐτονόμους, Τρῆρες ὥριζον καὶ Τιλαταῖοι· οἰκοῦσι δ’ οὗτοι πρὸς βορέαν τοῦ Σκόμβρου ὄρους καὶ παρήκουσι πρὸς ἡλίου δύσιν μέχρι τοῦ Ὀσκίου ποταμοῦ. ῥεῖ δ’ οὗτος ἐκ τοῦ ὄρους ὅθενπερ καὶ ὁ Νέστος καὶ ὁ Ἕβρος· ἔστι δὲ ἐρῆμον τὸ ὄρος καὶ μέγα, ἐχόμενον τῆς Ῥοδόπης.

Faza qe "cuditerisht" mungon ne origjinal eshte "μεκρι Γρααιον".

Perkthimet moderne te vepres se Tukididit nuk permendin me Graeanet por vetem Agrianet:

Beginning with the Odrysians, he first called out the Thracian tribes subject to him between Mounts Haemus and Rhodope and the Euxine and Hellespont; next the Getae beyond Haemus, and the other hordes settled south of the Danube in the neighborhood of the Euxine, who, like the Getae, border on the Scythians and are armed in the same manner, being all mounted archers. [2] Besides these he summoned many of the Hill Thracian independent swordsmen, called Dii and mostly inhabiting Mount Rhodope, some of whom came as mercenaries, others as volunteers; [3] also the Agrianes and Laeaeans, and the rest of the Paeonian tribes in his empire, at the confines of which these lay, extending up to the Laeaean Paeonians and the river Strymon, which flows from Mount Scombrus through the country of the Agrianes and Laeaeans; there the empire of Sitalces ends and the territory of the independent Paeonians begins. [4] Bordering on the Triballi, also independent, were the Treres and Tilataeans, who dwell to the north of Mount Scombrus and extend towards the setting sun as far as the river Oskius. This river rises in the same mountains as the Nestus and Hebrus, a wild and extensive range connected with Rhodope.

Zeus10, Trojan, Arban, Mallakastrioti & gjithe te tjeret:

Kerkoj mendimin tuaj nese kemi te bejme

1) me nje perkthim te falsifikuar me c'rast "...δια Γραιαιον" eshte kthyer ne "...δι’ Ἀγριάνων", dmth nga Graiaion eshte kthyer ne "Agrian" nje tjeter fis ilir ne Peonine veriore

apo

2) Graiaion dhe 'Agrianon' eshte e njejta gje?!

3) Perkthyesit e ndryshem te Tukididit e kane perkthyer "αι" e famshme ne "e"?

Ne fakt, une jam i prire te mbeshtes lidhjen e "Graik"eve dodonas me "Graianet" (?) e Peonise per arsyen e thjeshte se Peonet per nje kohe te caktuar kishin banuar ne afersi te Dodones me c'rast hamendesoj se nje pjese e tyre ka mbetur aty ne formen e 'Graik'eve historik. Kesaj i shtojme edhe faktin e njohur tanime se lidhjet e Peonise me Atiken nuk mungojne. Ne ilustrim te kesaj do te sillja kete fragment:


Larcher's notes on Herodotus:

Ne Atike madje gjejme nje treve "Agrae":

Paus. 1.19.6: Across the Ilisus is a district called Agrae and a temple of Artemis Agrotera 'the Huntress'. They say that Artemis first hunted here when she came from Delos, and for this reason the statue carries a bow. A marvel to the eyes, though not so impressive to hear of, is a race-course of white marble, the size of which can best be estimated from the fact that beginning in a crescent on the heights above the Ilisus it descends in two straight lines to the river bank. This was built by Herodes, an Athenian, and the greater part of the Pentelic quarry was exhausted in its construction.


[6] διαβᾶσι δὲ τὸν Ἰλισὸν χωρίον Ἄγραι καλούμενον καὶ ναὸς Ἀγροτέρας ἐστὶν Ἀρτέμιδος: ἐνταῦθα Ἄρτεμιν πρῶτον θηρεῦσαι λέγουσιν ἐλθοῦσαν ἐκ Δήλου, καὶ τὸ ἄγαλμα διὰ τοῦτο ἔχει τόξον. τὸ δὲ ἀκούσασι μὲν οὐχ ὁμοίως ἐπαγωγόν, θαῦμα δ᾽ ἰδοῦσι, στάδιόν ἐστι λευκοῦ λίθου. μέγεθος δὲ αὐτοῦ τῇδε ἄν τις μάλιστα τεκμαίροιτο: ἄνωθεν ὄρος ὑπὲρ τὸν Ἰλισὸν ἀρχόμενον ἐκ μηνοειδοῦς καθήκει τοῦ ποταμοῦ πρὸς τὴν ὄχθην εὐθύ τε καὶ διπλοῦν. τοῦτο ἀνὴρ Ἀθηναῖος Ἡρώδης ᾠκοδόμησε, καί οἱ τὸ πολὺ τῆς λιθοτομίας τῆς Πεντελῆσιν ἐς τὴν οἰκοδομὴν ἀνηλώθη.

Pres verejtjet dhe kontributin tuaj!!!

Por ama, Filipi kur romaket i kerkuan te evakuonte "Helladen", ndermjet te tjereve, agraionet, nuk i numeroi si greke:

What is this Greece, pray, from which you bid me to evacuate? How do you define it? Why, most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks; [u]for neither the Agrai[/u], nor the Apodoti, nor the Amphilochi are counted as Greek. Do you then give up those tribes to me?"

ποίας δὲ κελεύετέ με" φησὶν " ἐκχωρεῖν Ἑλλάδος καὶ πῶς ἀφορίζετε ταύτην; αὐτῶν γὰρ Αἰτωλῶν οὐκ εἰσὶν Ἕλληνες οἱ πλείους: [u]τὸ γὰρ τῶν Ἀγραῶν ἔθνος [/u]καὶ τὸ τῶν Ἀποδωτῶν, ἔτι δὲ τῶν Ἀμφιλόχων, οὐκ ἔστιν Ἑλλάς. [ ἢ τούτων μὲν παραχωρεῖτέ μοι;"

Vete Thuqiditi, i vendos Agrianet, ne nje territor ngjitur me Akarnanine:

καὶ διελθόντες τὴν Στρατίων γῆν ἐχώρουν διὰ τῆς Φυτίας καὶ αὖθις Μεδεῶνος παρ᾽ ἔσχατα, ἔπειτα διὰ Λιμναίας: καὶ ἐπέβησαν τῆς Ἀγραίων, οὐκέτι Ἀκαρνανίας, φιλίας δὲ σφίσιν.

A kane lidhje keta me Agrianet Ilirike(Apiani)?

οἱ δὲ Παίονές εἰσιν ἔθνος μέγα παρὰ τὸν Ἴστρον, ἐπίμηκες ἐξ Ἰαπόδων ἐπὶ Δαρδάνους, Παίονες μὲν ὑπὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων λεγόμενοι, καὶ ῥωμαϊστὶ Παννόνιοι, συναριθμούμενοι δὲ ὑπὸ Ῥωμαίων τῇ Ἰλλυρίδι, ὡς προεῖπον. διὸ καὶ περὶ τῶνδέ μοι δοκεῖ νῦν κατὰ τὰ Ἰλλυρικὰ εἰπεῖν. ἔνδοξοι δ᾽ εἰσὶν ἐκ Μακεδόνων δι᾽ Ἀγριᾶνας, οἳ τὰ μέγιστα Φιλίππῳ καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρῳ κατεργασάμενοι Παίονές εἰσι τῶν κάτω Παιόνων, Ἰλλυριοῖς ἔποικοι. .

Kjo vlen te diskutohet.

Zeus10 wrote:
Vete Thuqiditi, i vendos Agrianet, ne nje territor ngjitur me Akarnanine:

A kane lidhje keta me Agrianet Ilirike(Apiani)?

Kjo vlen te diskutohet.

Po nje lidhje me agraiet etolas me ka shkoi ndermend edhe mua! Ajo cka me nxit kurreshtjen eshte nese ka dallim midis Agrai dhe Agrae, qe mund te perbeje dallim tejet te madh. Ne njeren nga faqet e temes 'Etimologji' paten diskutuar gjer e gjate mbi etimologjine e emrit 'Agrian', ndersa ate e patem barazuar me 'eger'. Madje edhe ne rrefenjat e sterlashta, Agriani lidhet me boten e egersise:

AGRIOS & OREIOS (or Agrius and Oreius) were a pair of half-human, half-bear Thrakian (Thracian) giants. They were transformed into birds by the gods as punishment for their cruel barbarity.

The names of the pair mean "the wild" or "savage one" (Greek agrios) and "mountain-man" (Greek oreios).

http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GigantesAgriosOreios.html

Nderkohe ne Wiki gjeta listen si vijon te atyre qe kane bartur nje "epitet" te tille te 'egersise':

Agrius or Agrios (Gr. Ἄγριος), in Greek mythology, is a name that may refer to:
A son of Parthaon, king of Calydon in Aetolia, and Euryte; he was the brother of Oeneus (who succeeded his father as king of Calydon), Alcathous, Melas, Leucopeus, and Sterope.[1] He was father of six sons, including Melanippus and Thersites, who overthrew Oeneus and gave the kingdom to their father. Agrius and his sons were themselves overthrown by Diomedes, who reinstated Oeneus as king. All the sons except Thersites were killed by Diomedes.[2] Apollodorus places these events before the expedition of the Greeks against Troy, while Hyginus states that Diomedes, when he heard, after the fall of Troy, of the misfortune of his grandfather Oeneus, hastened back and expelled Agrius, who then committed suicide;[3] according to others, Agrius and his sons were all slain by Diomedes.[4][5]
A son of Odysseus by Circe and a brother of Latinus and Telegonus, mentioned only in Hesiod's Theogony.[6]
One of the Gigantes, enemies of the Olympian gods. He, together with Thoon, was clubbed to death by Moirai with maces made from bronze.[7]
One of the Centaurs who Heracles fought with.[8]
One of the suitors of Penelope, from Dulichium.[9]
One of Actaeon's dogs.[10]
The city of Agrinio, the largest city in Aetolia, took its name from Agrius.

Kaq sa i perket etimologjise se Agrianeve. Nese ajo eshte e sakte atehere duhet perjashtuar cfaredo lidhje me Graneanet e Paionise, Graiket e Dodones, Agreanet e Etolise, Agrean e Atikes, Graikon e Eubese, etj. Per gjitha keto pelqej te mbroj mendimin se kane te bejne me fjalen 'gra' qe mund te jete referuar identitetit matriarkal, aq i shpeshte ne boten pellazgo-ilire!!!

Pra, do te ishim ne rruge te mire te daljes nga ky labirinth i ngaterruar nese do te provonim qe 'Agrian' dhe 'Granean' nuk jane e njejta gje, pra jane diametralisht te ndryshme. Ose jane e njejta gje. Percaktimi i njeres nga mundesite do te ishte edhe "filli i Ariadnes' per te dale nga labirinthi...

Jo domosdoshmerisht. Ἄγριος dhe γραια jane dy terma me kuptime te ndryshme:
I pari eshte: i/e egri(i/e eger)



I dyti eshte : gra(grua)



te cilat per ca arsye qe helenistet, nuk i shpjegojne dot korespondojne me fjalet e sotme shqipe ne kuptim dhe grafik.

1.

EGRAS ndajf.
Egër, me egërsi. E shikoi egras

2.

GRA sh.
i GRUA,~JA.

GRUA f.
1. Njeri i seksit femëror; femër në moshë të pjekur që dallohet nga vajza. Grua e re (e bukur). Grua e martuar (e thyer, plakë). Grua shtëpiake. Grua punëtore. Grua trime. Zë (fytyrë) gruaje. Të drejtat e grave. Rroba (veshje, çorape, këpucë) grash. Punë grash. Rrobaqepësi për gra. Gjysmë gruaje grua në moshën rreth 40-45-vjeçare. U rrit vajza, u bë grua. Luftuan edhe gratë si burrat.
2. Bashkëshortja e një burri, e shoqja. Gruaja e parë (e dytë). Burrë e grua. Grua pa burrë. bised. Grua e ve. Motra (tezja) e gruas. E mori për grua. Ka grua të mirë. U nda nga gruaja. E la gruaja. Merr sa një grua një grua. bised. i ndan shpesh gratë, merr një grua e lë një tjetër.
3. vet. nj. Tërësia e grave, gjithë gratë bashkë; organizata e grave në një vend. Gruaja punëtore (fshatare). Gruaja shqiptare. Organizata e gruas. Këshilli i gruas. Emancipimi i gruas. Ngritja e gruas në përgjegjësi.
* Ato të grave euf. shih tek ATO. Gruaja (e bija) e botës shih te BOT/Ë,~A I.

Ajo qe te ben pershtypje eshte qe fjala GRA, si ne shqip si ne "greqishten e vjeter", i referohet gruas jo te re:

Falemnderit Zeus per shpjegimin e rrjedhshem dhe te qarte!

Pra, nese Ἄγριος dhe γραια jane dy terme diametralisht te kunderta vime ne perfundim qe perkthimi i Tukididit ne shumicen e edicioneve moderne eshte falsifikuar qellimshem per te asgjesuar prejardhjen "veriore" te atyre qe me vone u bene 'grek'.

Fisi peon i Greanve qellimisht eshte ngaterruar me ate te Agrianeve ne menyre qe te fshehet lidhja e dukshme me Graiket e famshem te Dodones, te cilet 'pagezuan' gjithe helenet.