"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

Këtu mund të flisni mbi historinë tonë duke sjellë fakte historike për ndriçimin e asaj pjese të historisë mbi të cilen ka rënë harresa e kohës dhe e njerëzve.

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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#16

Post by Zeus10 » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:48 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote:Konstandin Sathas eshte i pari historian qe guximshem vuri ne dukje se prania shqiptare ne Greqi daton shume me heret sesa qe pranohet zakonisht. Ne baze te disa kolonive te vendosura nga perandoret bizantin, Sathas e vendos terminus ante quem pranine shqiptare ne Qipro qysh ne shekullin e 4-te. Sathas eshte njeri prej atyre historianeve qe polemizoi ashpersisht me Fallmerayerin, kur ky i fundit kishte shkaktuar termet ne qarqet helenofile per komponenten sllave te grekeve modern. Per te kunderpeshuar elementin sllav, Sathas e te tjere si ai mendonin se sllavet fare pak kishin trazuar Greqine; ne te shumten e rasteve, ata kishin qene vecse arber, te cilet bizantinet i ngaterronin me avar. Sathas eshte pergjegjes per perkthimin ne greqishten e re te vepres se Halkokondilit. Ai i referohet nje fragmenti - qe sot mungon te Halkokondili - e ku flitet per ca koloni shqiptare ne ishullin e Qipros. Une nderkohe po shpalos disa te dhena, te cilat s'eshte e mundur te anashkalohen kur vjen puna e hershmerise shqiptare ne Greqi.
Eshte thuajse nje tradite gjate diktatures komuniste, qe te pranoheshin te mireqena teza te tilla "te mbrapshta" pa u diskutuar. Qe shqiptaret, jane te pranishem, shume perpara shek. te 14 ne More, per mua nuk perben hamendje fare, ajo qe me ben me teper pershtypje eshte se Sathas deklaron:

The races which colonized the Morea were really Albanese and were only called Slavs by the Byzantines out of hatred to the Hellenes .

Pra nese sunduesit Bizantine, e ndryshuan emrin e vertete te kolonisteve, nga albaneze ne sllave, sepse urrenin...(kë?)...helenët, atehere pse ata "fshinë" emrin "albanezë" per ta zevendesuar me slave? A nuk eshte ky nje konfirmim qe albanezet ishin vete helenët, kurse romiit(bizantinet) ishin ata qe I perbuznin ata?
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#17

Post by Zeus10 » Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:56 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote:Nje deshmi me rendesi per historine arberore eshte edhe kronika e bizantinit, Jan Kanabutzes i cili ne prag te shkaterrimit te Perandorise Romeje nga Latinet ne vitin 1204, i shkruen zoterve te rinj te Konstandinopojes si vijon:
  ήμείς γάρ Χριστιανοϊ οντες καϊ μίαν πίστιν εχοντες καϊ έν βάπτισμα μετά πολλών έθνών ομως βαρβάρους εχομεν καϊ λεγομεν τους Βουλγάρους, τους Βλάχους, τους Άλβανίτας, τους Ρούσους καϊ καθεξής τά άλλα έθνη  


Kjo do te thote qe identiteti fetar ne mesjete ishte evaziv sepse pertej vernikut te perbashkesise ortodokse shtriheshin identitete te vecanta etno-gjuhesore. Pra, per bizantinin ne fjale ndonese ne territoret e humbura kishin pasur καὶ μίαν πίστιν (nje besim, dmth ritin ortodoks) dhe te njejtin pagezim καὶ ἕν βάπτισμα, shqiptaret bashke me disa popuj te tjere mbaheshin per βαρβάρους (barbarë), meqe nuk kishin te njejte me bizantinet etninë, gjuhen, rregullimin politik dhe edukimin (ἀλλὰ νοεῖται διὰ τὸ γένος καὶ τὴν γλῶτταν καὶ τὴν τάξιν τῆς πολιτείας καὶ τὴν παίδευσιν).
Kjo gjithashtu, eshte e vlefshme dhe per lashtesine, duke na dhene nje perfytyrim te qarte, per definicionin e termit 'barbare'. Pra βαρβάρους quheshin gjithe ato έθνη, qe nuk kishin perqafuar besimin e helenëve, cilido qe ai ishte.
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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#18

Post by Zeus10 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:14 pm

Mallakastrioti wrote:Laonikos Chalkokondyles ( Λαόνικος Χαλκοκονδύλης; 1423 – 1490)

Me shqiptaret identifikoheshin si Iliret ashtu edhe Maqedonasit ne vepren e Kalkokondiles:

Laonici Chalcocondylae Atheniensis historiarum libri decem
Laonikos Chalkokondylēs,Immanuel Bekker
ιλλυριους μαλλον το γενος τουτο ειναι ή αλβανουςProinde magis eos potius Illyrios quam Albanos dicendos esse
&
Αλβανούς γαρ έγωγε μάλλον τε τοις Μακεδόσι προστίθεσθαι αν λέγει μοι ή άλλω τινι των κατά την οικουμένην εθνών
I njejti autor, serish i identifikon Iliret kryesisht si shqiptare, por eshte paksa i habitur, me ata njerez, qe mendojne , se shqiptaret popullojne te njejtat territore si Iliret ne kohet e vjetra duke permendur dhe territoret , Epirin, Etoline dhe Thessaline.

θαυμαζω δε εϊ τους Ιλλυριούς αποφαινόμενος Αλβανούς τεχμαίροιτό τις, συμβαλλόμενος ως Ιλλυριοί οϊ προς τω μυχω του Ιονίου έχώρησαν επί την Ηπειρόν τε χαι Αίτωλίαν χαί Θετταλίας χώρανmiror autem quod sunt qui censeant Illyricos Albanos esse, quasi Illyrii, qui tenent sinum Ionii, processerint in hanc continentem(Epirus-shenimi im) et Aetoliam et Thessaliae regionem.
Pra, me kete koment, te Laonikos, konfirmohet, te pakten sipas kendveshtrimit te ketij autori, qe banoret e lashte te Gjirit te Jonit, te Epirit (ku perkthyesi, duket sikuar ka bere nje gabim, duke e perkthyer: kontinent), Thesalise, dhe Aetolise, ishin ne fakt Ilire.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#19

Post by Zeus10 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:22 pm

Image
Αλβανούς γαρ εγωγε μάλλον τε τοις Μαχεδόσι προστιθεσθαι αν λέγοιμι η αλλώ τινί των κατά την οίκουμένην έθνώνAlbanos potius Macedonibus adnumerari existimo quam alii in terrarum orbe genti.
Shqiptaret, jane ata qe mund te cilesohet Maqedonas, me shume se cdo popull tjeter ne Bote.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#20

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:07 am

[37.1] Τῷ αὐτῷ δὴ φθινοπώρῳ τοῦ ξβου ἔτους δηλονότι τελείως ἐπανέστησαν οἱ τοῦ Μορέως Ἀλβανῖται κατὰ τῶν δεσποτῶν καὶ αὐθεντῶν αὐτῶν καὶ τόν, οὐκ οἶδα τί εἰπεῖν, Καντακουζηνὸν Μανουὴλ δεσπότην τάχα πεποιήκασι.

[quoteem]...Shqiptaret e Morese u kryengriten kunder despoteve te tyre (despoteve bizantin, shen imi - AlbPel.) dhe zgjodhen si te pare te tyre Manuel Kantakuzenin..[/quoteem]


[39.1] Τὸν δὲ Ἰαννουάριον μῆνα τοῦ αὐτοῦ ἔτους καὶ ὁ καλὸς κἀγαθὸς Λουκάνης Νικηφόρος, ἢ μᾶλλον Μορεοφθόρος, καὶ τῶν πρώτων καὶ πιστῶν ἀρχόντων τοῦ δεσπότου κὺρ Δημητρίου λογιζόμενος, καί τινες ἄλλοι Ἀλβανιτῶν καὶ Μοραϊτῶν, οὓς καὶ αὐτὸς πλέον τὸ εἰς κακίαν ἐκείνων πρόχειρον ᾠκονόμησεν, ἔπεισαν τὸν δεσπότην κὺρ Θωμᾶν, ἵνα καὶ κατὰ τοῦ ἀμηρᾶ καὶ κατὰ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ αὑτοῦ ἐπανάστασιν ποιήσῃ

[quoteem]...shqiptaret dhe moraitet e binden despotin Thoma qe te kryengritej kunder Sulltanit dhe vellait te tij...[/quoteem]

[39.8] Ἔτι δὲ καὶ τὸ κάκιστον καὶ ἀφελέστατον γένος τῶν Ἀλβανιτῶν, καιροῦ λαβόμενον τῆς ὑπολήψεως καὶ ἁρπακτικῆς αὐτῶν γνώμης ἁρμοδίου, τί οὐκ ἔπραξαν ᾒ τί οὐκ εἰργάσαντο κακόν; Ἀπιστοῦντες γὰρ δὶς τοῦ σαββάτου, ἀπὸ τὸν ἕνα τῶν αὐθεντῶν εἰς τὸν ἄλλον ἀπήρχοντο· καὶ κάστρα, ὡς ἡ ἐκείνων γλῶσσα, εἰς κεφαλατίκια ἀπῄτουν, εἰ δ’ οὖν, εἰς τὸν ἄλλον ἀπήρχοντο καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι πρὸς τὸν ἕτερον τῶν δεσποτῶν ὁμοίως. Διὰ μέσου οὖν, εἴ τι ἆρα καὶ εὕρισκον τῶν ἀθλίων τάχα Ῥωμαίων, ἀλλὰ δὴ καὶ τῶν Ἀλβανιτῶν καὶ συγγενῶν πολλάκις καὶ οἰκείων αὐτῶν, πάντα διηρπάζοντο καὶ ἠφάνιζον. Ἐγένοντο δὲ τοιαῦτα καὶ τοσαῦτα, ὅτι τὶς ἀξίως αὐτὰ θρηνήσειεν;
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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#21

Post by ALBPelasgian » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:28 pm

Zeus10 wrote: I njejti autor, serish i identifikon Iliret kryesisht si shqiptare, por eshte paksa i habitur, me ata njerez, qe mendojne , se shqiptaret popullojne te njejtat territore
Zeus duhet te bejme kujdes me Halkokondilin. Ai, ne te vertete i kundervihet kolegeve te tij kronikane tek te cilet ishte pjekur mendimi se shqiptaret ishin ilire. Nderkaq, Halkokondili polemizon me ta, duke u thene se shqiptaret nuk jane ilirë; kete term ai ne menyre arkaizuese ua mvesh boshnjakeve dhe serbeve (ose ilireve dhe tribaleve, sic i quan ai). Kronikani nga Athina konsideron se shqiptaret perngjasojne me se shumti me maqedonet. Interpretimi im asht ky: ne te vertete Halkokondili nuk ishte fort ne dijeni te banoreve te mocem te Maqedonise e Ilirise, qe te mund te gjente lidhje gjenetike mes popujve te kohes se tij dhe atyre te antikitetit. Si nje pedant bizantin, te vetmet gjera qe i dinte ishin ndarjet provinciale te trasheguara nga koha romake: sic dihet provinca e Ilirise per gjate kohe perfshinte gjithe Dalmacine deri ne Lezhen e sotme; nderkaq provinca e Maqedonise romake (ashtu sic e pershkruan edhe Straboni) perfshinte Shqiperine e sotme qendrore (Epirus Nova), pjese te konsiduerueshme te Epirus Veta si dhe Maqedonine e vjeter. Ne kohen e Halkokondilit e gjithe Dalmacia, madje edhe nji pjese e Malit te Zi banohej prej sllaveve, prandaj ai e gjente te lehte t'i quante ata 'ilirë'. Por, ne te njejten kohe ajo qe dikur ishte Maqedoni romane banohej dendurisht prej arberoreve, qe per Halkokondilin duhej te ishte nji konfirmim se shqiptaret ishin me te ngjashmit me maqedonet.

Ne vijim po jap nji perkthim te lire timin, pjeserisht duke u mbeshtete edhe ne perkthimin e Koço Bozhorit ne 'Burime Tregimtare Bizantine per Historine e Shqiperise'.

[quoteem]φωνῆ τε γαρ αμφότεροι τῆ αὐτῆ χρῶνται ετι καἰ νῦν, καἰ ηθεσι τοις αὐτοις καἰ διαίτη, ωστε οὐκ ὀρθῶς αν λέγοιεν οἱ γνώμην ἀποδεικνύμενοι περι 'Ιλλυριῶν ὡς ειησαν οἱ νῦν 'Αλβανοί.[/quoteem]

Perkthimi

Qe te dyja (e ka fjalen per serbet dhe boshnjaket - shen. imi - Albpel) edhe tani perdorin te njejten gjuhe, te njejtat zakone dhe te njejten menyre jete. Nuk flasin drejte ata qe i njohin shqiptaret e sotem si ilire.

[quoteem]ὡς μεν ουν ἀπ' 'Επιδάμνου καἰ ουτοι ωρμηντο ἐς την προς εω χὠραν τῆς Εὐρωπης, ἐπι Θετταλίαν τε ἀφικόμενοι καἰ ἐπι Αἰτωλἰαν και 'Ακαρνανίαν, ουκ ὀλίγα αττα τῆς Μακεδονίας χορία ὐφ' αὐτοῖς πεποιημένοι ωκουν, οἰδα τε αὐτος ἐπισταμενος, ἀπο πολλῶν τεκμαιρόμενος, και πολλῶν δἠ ἀκήκοα.[/quoteem]

Edhe keta (e ka fjalen per shqiptaret - shen. imi Alb) u nisen nga Epidami ne drejtim te vendeve lindore te Evropes dhe pasi arriten ne Thesali, Etoli dhe Akarnani dhe moren jo pak pjese te Maqedonise, u vendosen dhe banuan aty. I kam degjuar keto prej shume njerezve.

[quoteem]ειτε μεν οὐν ἀπο 'Ιαπυγίας, ὡς ενιοι φασίν, ἐς 'Επίδαμνον διαβάντες ἐπι την χώραν ην ὑπηγάγοντο σφίσιν αλλος αλλη ἀφίκοντο, ειτε αὐτοῦ περι 'Επίδαμνον την ἀρχη 'Ιλλυριῶν όομοροι προιντες κατα Βραχυ κατέσχον την προς εω τῆς 'Επιδάμνου χώραν, οὐκ εχω οπη συμβάλλωμαι ἀσφαλῶς.[/quoteem]

Disa thone se shqiptaret u nisen nga Japigjia (Italia Jugore - shen. im Alb) dhe kaluan ne Epidam duke nenshtruar vendin rrotull; ose ndodheshin ne Epidam prej fillimit, afer ilireve, dhe duke shkuar perpara moren gjithe vendin rreth Epidamit, nuk di ta them me siguri.

Ma e randesishmja asht se Halkokondili nuk di te thote me saktesi prej nga erdhen shqiptaret, prandaj detyrohet te thote se disa thone qe ndodheshin rreth Epidamit qysh prej fillimit (ειτε αὐτοῦ περι 'Επίδαμνον την ἀρχη).
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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#22

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:18 pm

Fakti, qe ai i cileson boshnjaket 'ilirë' dhe serbet 'tribalë', eshte ne traditen e shkruasve byzantine, qe i emerojne kombet e reja, me te njejtin emer me banoret e vjeter te te njejtit vend. Kurse kur vjen puna tek shqiptaret, ai ben nje diferencim te rendesishem, kur shprehet: 'kane qene rrotull qe ne kohet e vjetra'. Sigurisht, ai ka kufizimet e veta, si nje shkrues qe i mbeshtet konkluzionet e veta, vetem nga pershtypjet e te tjereve, por disa kuota te tij jane vertete shume interesante. Ne fund te fundit, ne nuk duam te imponojme nje teze tonen historike, por te gjurmojme te verteten historike, cilado qe ajo eshte.
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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#23

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:25 am

Zeus10 wrote:Fakti, qe ai i cileson boshnjaket 'ilirë' dhe serbet 'tribalë', eshte ne traditen e shkruasve byzantine, qe i emerojne kombet e reja, me te njejtin emer me banoret e vjeter te te njejtit vend. Kurse kur vjen puna tek shqiptaret, ai ben nje diferencim te rendesishem, kur shprehet: 'kane qene rrotull qe ne kohet e vjetra'. Sigurisht, ai ka kufizimet e veta, si nje shkrues qe i mbeshtet konkluzionet e veta, vetem nga pershtypjet e te tjereve, por disa kuota te tij jane vertete shume interesante. Ne fund te fundit, ne nuk duam te imponojme nje teze tonen historike, por te gjurmojme te verteten historike, cilado qe ajo eshte.
Pikerisht Zeus! Randsia e krejt fragmentit asht pasuri ειτε αὐτοῦ περι 'Επίδαμνον την ἀρχη, gje qe nuk e thote per asnjerin prej popujve ballkanik te kohes. Ne vijim do t'i sjell disa pasazhe te tjera te po te njejtit autor, te cilat jane interpretuar gabimisht nga nji numer studiuesish...
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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#24

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:32 pm

Image

Perkthimi i pjeseve te nenvizume me te kuqe:

[quoteem]1. Shqiptaret duke u nise nga Epidamni u shtyne drejt lindjes, moren Thesaline dhe nje pjese te Maqedonise, Gjirokastren dhe Kosturin.[/quoteem]

[quoteem]2. Ata duke qene nomade nuk kishin nje vend te qendrueshem[/quoteem]

[quoteem]3. Pastaj u moren vesh midis tyre qe te sulmonin greket, ne menyre qe te leviznin perpara.[/quoteem]

[quoteem]4. Karli duke u nisur prej ishujve, se bashku me shokte e tij dhe disa te tjere nga vendi qe shqetesoheshin prej sundimit te shqiptareve[/quoteem]

Interpretimi:

1. Shqiptaret rreth Epidamnit, aty ku permenden per here te pare ne kronikat bizantine si subjekt i mevetesishem, ishin te paret qe fituan pavaresine prej Perandorise Bizantine. Kjo do te thote qe ata nisen shthurjen e pushtetit bizantin ne jug. Kjo nuk nenkupton vendosje te tyre, aq me pak kolonizim.

2. Qytetet e Epirit vazhdonin te ishin nen kontroll te pushtetareve e feudaleve bizantine, nderkohe qe hinterlandi banohej dendur prej shqiptareve, veprimtaria e te cileve ishte blegtorale, kryesisht.

3. Ata sulmuan bizantinet grek-foles te Epirit, dmth ata qe banonin neper qendra (Ellisin).

4. Kjo tregon se Karl Toko, sunduesi i Qefalonise, nuk pelqehej aspak prej popullates autoktone epirote, por mbeshtetjen e kishte te miqte e tij feudal si dhe tek disa te vendit καί τινων τῶν τῆς χώρας, dmth tek nji pjese e bizantineve tashme te shpronesuar. Kjo, per hesap tem, i qet pikat mbi "i" sepse shqiptaret ne Epir u njesuan me vellezerit e tyre nga Arbanoni duke shkaterruar perfundimisht mbetjet bizantine.
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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#25

Post by Zeus10 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:47 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote:
Interpretimi:

1. Shqiptaret rreth Epidamnit, aty ku permenden per here te pare ne kronikat bizantine si subjekt i mevetesishem, ishin te paret qe fituan pavaresine prej Perandorise Bizantine. Kjo do te thote qe ata nisen shthurjen e pushtetit bizantin ne jug. Kjo nuk nenkupton vendosje te tyre, aq me pak kolonizim.

2. Qytetet e Epirit vazhdonin te ishin nen kontroll te pushtetareve e feudaleve bizantine, nderkohe qe hinterlandi banohej dendur prej shqiptareve, veprimtaria e te cileve ishte blegtorale, kryesisht.

3. Ata sulmuan bizantinet grek-foles te Epirit, dmth ata qe banonin neper qendra (Ellisin).

4. Kjo tregon se Karl Toko, sunduesi i Qefalonise, nuk pelqehej aspak prej popullates autoktone epirote, por mbeshtetjen e kishte te miqte e tij feudal si dhe tek disa te vendit καί τινων τῶν τῆς χώρας, dmth tek nji pjese e bizantineve tashme te shpronesuar. Kjo, per hesap tem, i qet pikat mbi "i" sepse shqiptaret ne Epir u njesuan me vellezerit e tyre nga Arbanoni duke shkaterruar perfundimisht mbetjet bizantine.
Me pak fjale, Alb, prijesat e shqiptareve, e kuptuan qe jeta rurale e populates shqiptare, nuk ofronte mireqenie dhe keshtu vendosen, te largonin me force sundimtaret byzantine, nga qendrat e pasura urbane.
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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#26

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:08 pm

Zeus10 wrote: Me pak fjale, Alb, prijesat e shqiptareve, e kuptuan qe jeta rurale e populates shqiptare, nuk ofronte mireqenie dhe keshtu vendosen, te largonin me force sundimtaret byzantine, nga qendrat e pasura urbane.
Pikerisht Zeus! Dhe aq te rrenjosur ishin shqiptaret ne Epir, kur perfundimisht shkaterruan sundimin bizantin, saqe gjer vone termi 'shqiptar' dhe ai 'epirot' ishin te nderkembyeshem. Nji gja e tille nuk ndodhi me serbet, bullgaret a boshnjaket, meqe askush me s'iu referua si tribalë, mezë e ilirë.

Jane te pafundme burimet latine qe i ke sjelle ne sa e sa tema qe e vnojnë shenjen e barazimit midis 'shqiptar' dhe 'epirot' si dhe 'Shqiperi' me 'Epir'. Por te gjitha keto i takojne shek. 15 e tutje. Prandaj e rendesishme eshte te qemtohen deri ne imtesi kronikat bizantine, sic ishte rasti me ate te Halkokondilit.
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#27

Post by Zeus10 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:01 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote: Prandaj e rendesishme eshte te qemtohen deri ne imtesi kronikat bizantine, sic ishte rasti me ate te Halkokondilit.
Alb, a mendon qe Laonikos kur thote qe shqiptaret kane qene rreth Epidamnit:

ειτε αὐτοῦ περι 'Επίδαμνον την ἀρχη

qe ne kohet e lashta, i referohet Ptolemeut?

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#28

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:48 pm

Zeus10 wrote:
Alb, a mendon qe Laonikos kur thote qe shqiptaret kane qene rreth Epidamnit:

ειτε αὐτοῦ περι 'Επίδαμνον την ἀρχη

qe ne kohet e lashta, i referohet Ptolemeut?
Po Zeus sepse vete fakti qe Halkokondili gjendet perballe dy mendimeve, me sa duket mjaft kontradiktore ne kohe te tij, nese shqiptaret mund te ishin te ardhur nga Japigjia (Italia Jugore e Sicila). Ky keqkuptim mbase vjen prej Ataliatit kur i permend arberoret ne Itali, e qe pas cdo gjase, ishin stradiote qe udhehiqeshin prej Gjergj Maniakut:
  Αλβανοί και Λατίνοι όσοι μετά την εσπερίαν Ρώμην τοις Ιταλικοίς πλησιάζουσι μέρεσι  
[quoteem]arbën e latinë, te gjithe qe pas Romes perendimore jane afer pjeseve italike...[/quoteem]

Per mua asht e padyshimte qe Halkokondili te kete pasur ne dore Gjeografine e Ptolemeut, ku permend banoret e Albanopolisit si 'Αλβανῶν.
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#29

Post by TeuAL » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:15 pm

Zeus10 wrote:Image
Αλβανούς γαρ εγωγε μάλλον τε τοις Μαχεδόσι προστιθεσθαι αν λέγοιμι η αλλώ τινί των κατά την οίκουμένην έθνώνAlbanos potius Macedonibus adnumerari existimo quam alii in terrarum orbe genti.
Shqiptaret, jane ata qe mund te cilesohet Maqedonas, me shume se cdo popull tjeter ne Bote.
Nje burim tjeter, libri qe vijon, njeri nga autoret quhet Albani(?). Ne fleten #(957-958) vihet ne dukje dallimi ndermjet Albaneve te Albalonges(prane Romes) dhe Albaneve te Shqiperise qe ketu quhen "Albaniensis ex Macedonia". Nuk kam perkthim te ketij paragrafi por mendoj se duhet theksuar dallimi ndermjet "Albanë=banore te Shqiperise se mesme(dikur e pushtuar nga Maqedonet)" dhe "Albanians = banore te Shqiperise natyrale". Ngjitur eshte paragrafi nga fleta qe permenda.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=QZOxqjK ... navlinks_s
================= Vol_4 ========
Bibliographic information

Title:
Utriusque thesauri antiquitatum romanorum graecarumque nova supplementa congesta ab Joanne Polemo, Giovanni Poleni

Authors:
Giovanni Poleni, Albani

Publisher Pasquali, 1737
Original from Lyon Public Library (Bibliothèque jésuite des Fontaines)
Digitized 31 May 2010
================================
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Re: Iliret ose shqiptaret, ne kronikat bizantine.

#30

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:48 pm

Image
Dubitari potest an Albaniesis, sive Albaniensis dicta fuerit Rubria Prima, ab Albano loco prope Romam, ubi sacrificia Jovi Laciali peragebantur, qui & Albano hodie, an ab Albania Provincia Macedoniae, a qua melius derivatur Albaniensis: vetum prius iri fallor praeferri debet, eо quod si fuisset mulier ista ex Macedonia, Graecum fuisset Epitaphium
Mesa kuptoj une, Rubia Prima, eshte emri i gruas, per te cilen eshte shkruar epitafi dhe ajo eshte me kombesi Albaniesis. Autori, supozon qe do te ishte gabim te konsiderohej ajo ti perkiste Albaneve te Romes Laciale, qe adhuronin Jupiterin, do te ishte me e drejte qe ajo te ishte Albanensis, pra shqiptare, e provinces maqedone SOT Albania, qekurse epitafi eshte grek(jo ne kuptimin etnik).
A ishte Shqiperia(Albania) akoma province maqedone, ne kohen e ketij komenti, qekurse autori perdor: Albano hodie(sot)?
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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