"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

Flisni për gjuhën shqipe, magjinë e saj, evoluimin, lidhjet e saj me gjuhët e tjera, rreziqet që i kanosen.

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Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#1

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:08 pm

Rreshtat e meposhtme i kam shkeputur nga Libri "Zogjte" i Aristofanit. Gjeta nje shqipe te dokumentuar ne gjuhen e nje personazhi qe perfaqson nje individ nga fisi Ilir i Triballeve, gjate bisedes se tij me personazhe te tjere, po e sjell """greqisht"" dhe anglisht, kete prove fantastike te gjuhes shqipe qe ne lashtesi:
Aristophanes Birds 1606
[col]Πισθέταιρος
ἄληθες; οὐ γὰρ μεῖζον ὑμεῖς οἱ θεοὶ
ἰσχύσετ᾽, ἢν ὄρνιθες ἄρξωσιν κάτω;
νῦν μέν γ᾽ ὑπὸ ταῖς νεφέλαισιν ἐγκεκρυμμένοι
κύψαντες ἐπιορκοῦσιν ὑμᾶς οἱ βροτοί:
ἐὰν δὲ τοὺς ὄρνις ἔχητε συμμάχους,
ὅταν ὀμνύῃ τις τὸν κόρακα καὶ τὸν Δία,
ὁ κόραξ παρελθὼν τοὐπιορκοῦντος λάθρᾳ
προσπτόμενος ἐκκόψει τὸν ὀφθαλμὸν θενών.

Ποσειδῶν
νὴ τὸν Ποσειδῶ ταῦτά γέ τοι καλῶς λέγεις.

Ἡρακλῆς
κἀμοὶ δοκεῖ.

Πισθέταιρος
τί δαὶ σὺ φῄς;

Τριβαλλός
ναβαισατρεῦ.

Πισθέταιρος
ὁρᾷς; ἐπαινεῖ χοὖτος. ἕτερόν νυν ἔτι
ἀκούσαθ᾽ ὅσον ὑμᾶς ἀγαθὸν ποιήσομεν.
ἐάν τις ἀνθρώπων ἱερεῖόν τῳ θεῶν
εὐξάμενος εἶτα διασοφίζηται λέγων,
‘μενετοὶ θεοί,’ καὶ μἀποδιδῷ μισητίᾳ,
ἀναπράξομεν καὶ ταῦτα.|Pisthetaerus
What an error. Why, the gods will be much more powerful if the birds govern the earth. At present the mortals are hidden beneath the clouds, escape your observation, and commit perjury in your name; [1610] but if you had the birds for your allies, and a man, after having sworn by the crow and Zeus, should fail to keep his oath, the crow would dive down upon him unawares and pluck out his eye.

Poseidon
Well thought of, by Poseidon!

Heracles
My notion too.

Pisthetaerus
To Triballus.
And you, what's your opinion?

Triballus
Nabasatreu.

Pisthetaerus
D'you see? he also approves. But listen, here is another thing in which we can serve you. If a man vows to offer a sacrifice to some god, and then procrastinates, [1620] pretending that the gods can wait, and thus does not keep his word, we shall punish his stinginess.[/col]

Çfare thote Triballi qe perkthyesi anglez nuk e perkthen dot?

Nabasatreu

Le ta shpjegojme:
Poseidoni thote i pari nje mendim.
Herkuli eshte ne nje mendje me te, pra ata behen DY.

kur pyesin tribalin, cfare mendimi ka ai pergjgjet:

Nabasatreu

pra na bash tre, pra ne behemi tre veta , qe jemi ne nje mendje.
Per ta konfirmuar kete, edhe vete Pisthetarusi thote:

E shikoni? ai eshte ne nje mendje me ju.

Kjo eshte nje prove e egzistences se gjuhes shqipe ne lashtesi. Por me e cuditshmja eshte se megjithese TRIBALI FLISTE SHQIP """GREKET""" BASHKEBISEDUES ARRININ TA KUPTONIN. Kjo eshte prova me e pakundershtueshme e etnicitetit te ilireve dhe ""grekeve"".
Me pas do te sjelle prova te tjera, po nga ky bashkebisedim.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#2

Post by Mallakastrioti » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:44 pm

Lexova edhe une nje debat midis disa antareve ne nje forum (qe nuk po i them emrin) Zeus,dhe kisha shkeputur gjithashtu edhe une me pare keto pjese.Po per fjalen tjeter qe thote Tribali,si mund te shpjegohet (pyes pasi hasa ne shume shpjegime te ndryshme).

Kjo qe solle me siper me duket me te vertet e shpjegueshme dhe me baza,por ndoshta duhet pare edhe me tej biseda midis Poseidonit,Herkulit,Tribalit dhe Pisthetaerus(?):

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SAUNAKA BAKTARIKROUSA=?
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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#3

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:49 pm

Kurse kjo ketu me poshte, tregon qe perkthyesit angleze, kane spekuluar shume me perkthimin e """greqishtes""":

[col]Ἡρακλῆς
τὸ σκῆπτρον ἀποδοῦναι πάλιν ψηφίζομαι
τούτοις ἐγώ.

Ποσειδῶν
καὶ τὸν Τριβαλλόν νυν ἐροῦ.

Ἡρακλῆς
ὁ Τριβαλλός, οἰμώζειν δοκεῖ σοι;

Τριβαλλός
σαυνάκα
βακταρικροῦσα.

Ἡρακλῆς
φησί μ᾽ εὖ λέγειν πάνυ.

Ποσειδῶν
εἴ τοι δοκεῖ σφῷν ταῦτα, κἀμοὶ συνδοκεῖ.

Ἡρακλῆς
οὗτος, δοκεῖ δρᾶν ταῦτα τοῦ σκήπτρου πέρι.|Heracles
I vote for restoring them the scepter.

Poseidon
Ask Triballus.

Heracles
Hi! Triballus, do you want a thrashing?

Triballus
Sure, bashum head withum stick.

Heracles
He says, “Right willingly.”

Poseidon
If that be the opinion of both of you, why, I consent too.

Heracles
Very well! we accord you the scepter.[/col]

Ku e di perkthyesi anglez cthote Triballi?
Ceshte e verteta, ai ka arritur ta kuptoj ate nga interpretimi i Herkulit, por fakti me interesant eshte se Herkuli, arrin ta kuptoj gjuhen e Triballeve, ne rastin konkret dhe pergjigjen e Triballit:

σαυνάκα βακταρικροῦσα.

ai e interpreton:

φησί μ᾽ εὖ λέγειν πάνυ.

THOTE, ME U THENE BASHKE.

Eshte gati e pamundur qe "greqishten" e bashkebiseduesve te mos ta cilesosh shqip(megjithese shume e transformuar), por ajo qe e ben me interesante kete analize, eshte fakti qe nje ilir, me nje gjuhe qe nuk eshte ajo qe thuhet se eshte "greqisht", pyetet me respekt dhe mendimi i tij degjohet po me aq respekt, nga heronjte legjendare "greke" si Herkuli dhe hyjnite po """greke""" si Poseidoni, duke u kuptuar lehtesisht, megjithese gjasme sipas propagandes greke te sotme, greket e lashte dhe iliret, ishin dy kombe te ndryshme me gjuhe te ndryshme, por qe cuditerisht provat jane qe ata merreshin fare mire vesh, megjithese me dialekte te ndryshme.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#4

Post by Mallakastrioti » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:03 pm

σαυνάκα βακταρικροῦσα.=si une bashke ri ?=gjithashtu une jam bashke me ju?
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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#5

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:06 pm

Ky Triballas ne nje moment te caktuar, "harron" dialektin e tij 'alien' dhe pergjigjet ne nje "greqishte" te paster:

Τριβαλλός
ἕξεις ἀτρέμας

Megjithese fjalet jane dukshem ""greqisht""", perkthyesi per cudi ka "harruar" te perktheje, por megjithate le ti marrim fjalet nje nga nje sipas filologeve moderne:

ἕξις-----a having( from the verb ἔχω)
ἀτρέμας--------without trembling( ἀ---privative, without)

Se sa greqisht eshte kjo e kuptojne gjithe shqiptaret;
ἔχω eshte folja e kom(e kam) kurse ἕξις eshte forma e brendaeptuar e kish e foljes te siperpermendur.
Kurse ἀτρέμας= ἀ(privative preposition)+ τρέμ( to be trembled, to be scared) + ας(suffix, singular masculine definitive)

eshte ne fakt fjala shqipe I PATREM(i patremb) ose i patrembur=TRIM
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#6

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:09 pm

Mallakastrioti wrote:σαυνάκα βακταρικροῦσα.=si une bashke ri ?=gjithashtu une jam bashke me ju?
Pak a shume :
sa per une(mua) ka me u krye bashke

pra me nje fjale:

le ta vendosim se bashku

Problemi eshte se eshte dialekt, eshte forme e vjeter, fjalet jane te pashkeputura, jane percjelle nga dikush qe nuk e ka ditur dialektin e tyre.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#7

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:19 pm

Ne nje moment tjeter po ky triballas flet me nje gjuhe ku dallohen 2-3 fjale """greqisht"", te tjerat nje zot e di se cjane:

καλάνι κόραυνα καὶ μεγάλα βασιλιναῦ ὄρνιτο παραδίδωμι.

"""greqisht""
βασιλιναῦ --mbreteresha
μεγάλα--madhe

gjysem "greqisht"" gjysem shqip:
παραδίδωμι- paradhenje( buron nga folja δωμ ose δίδωμ, me dhane, dhomje, te japesh)
καὶ--dhe ose që

te panjohura per ""greqishten""
καλάνι ????
κόραυνα ????
ὄρνιτο ????
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#8

Post by Mallakastrioti » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:21 pm

βακταρικροῦσα----nuk di po me tingellon me prane me fjalen shqipe "BASHKERISHT "
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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#9

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:26 pm

Mallakastrioti wrote:βακταρικροῦσα----nuk di po me tingellon me prane me fjalen shqipe "BASHKERISHT "
Me shume mundesi ka te mos jete nje fjale e vetme, megjithese edhe une jam me perafrimin tend. Une do e copetoja keshtu:
βακταρικροῦσα= βα + κτα + ρι + κροῦσα
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#10

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:53 am

Teme e jashtezakonshme! Me vjen cudi s'i me ka shpetuar gjer me tani pa e pare...
Sidoqofte une e gjej te arsyeshme te shtroj per diskutim nje ceshtje qe me ka provokuar gjithnje nga po ky autor. Nder te tjerash tek 'Zogjte' shkruan:
ARISTOPHANES ”THE BIRDS”

PITHETAERUS
Ah! and since when, pray?
PROMETHEUS
Since you founded this city in the air. There is not a man who now
sacrifices to the gods, the smoke of the victims no longer reaches us.
Not the smallest offering comes! We fast as though it were the
festivall of Demeter. The barbarian gods, who are dying of hunger, are
bawling like Illyrians and threaten to make an armed descent upon
Zeus, if he does not open markets where joints of the victims are sold.

PITHETAERUS
What! there are other gods besides you, barbarian gods who dwell above Olympus?
PROMETHEUS
If there were no barbarian gods, who would be the patron of Execestides?
PITHETAERUS
And what is the name of these gods?
PROMETHEUS
Their name? Why, the Triballi
Kjo i nxiti do propagandista bizantine te shpallnin me te madhe se:
On the other hand, the 12 gods of Olympus were not shared by Illyrians. Aristophanes in his “Όρνιθες” [1520-1523], places the gods οf the Triballians/Illyrians above Zeus, distinguishing this way the 12 Olympian Gods from the gods of Triballians/Illyrians.
Si duhet ta interpretojme pasazhin e mesiperm te Aristofanit?
Sidomos pjeset e nenvizuara me shenjues te kuq dhe te kalter?!

P.S: Per mendimin tim, Aristofani permes gojes se Prometheut thote se perendite ilire ishin po kaq te kryehershme sa ato """""greke""" ne panetonin e Olimpit. Pervec kesaj, kjo perendi zinte nje vend te respektuar ne kete panteon si dhe dialogonte pa problem me zoterat e tjere...
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#11

Post by erix77 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:21 pm

P.S: Per mendimin tim, Aristofani permes gojes se Prometheut thote se perendite ilire ishin po kaq te kryehershme sa ato """""greke""" ne panetonin e Olimpit. Pervec kesaj, kjo perendi zinte nje vend te respektuar ne kete panteon si dhe dialogonte pa problem me zoterat e tjere...
Nqs PITHETAERUS ishte Triball pra Ilir dhe i habitur e mesoi egzistencen e perendive barbare prej Prometeut,kjo do te thote vetem nje gje:Triballet Ilire njihnin vetem perendite e olimpit dhe keto perendi barbare ishin te panjohura per ta.
Dhe e bëmë me besa besën ja të rrojmë ja të vdesëm!

Ishte thënë prej Zotit që të nderohen armët e Shqipërisë!

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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#12

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:48 pm

Pervec kesaj, nje nga arsyet qe kultura "greke" shikohen me respekt, eshte krijimi ne vetvete i panteonit te hyjnive(Olimpi) vetem prej tyre, gje qe rezulton false. Ashtu sic shkroi dhe Erixi, u desh pohimi i nje ""greku"", qe nje ilir, te merrte dijenine, qe mes hyjnive greke jetonin dhe ato ilire. Pra vete panteoni, real apo virtual(besim), nuk na qenkesh krijuar ne krye te heres prej ""grekeve"" dhe Olimpi nuk ishte objekt kulti vetem per ""greket", por per gjithe ate bashkesi ballkanike te madhe njerezish.
Spekulimi qe ""greket"" na qenkeshin nje kulture specifike e nje "race" te vecante, qe shkelqeu perbri ""barbareve"" ilire-epirote dhe trake, po i vjen fundi. Etniciteti i nje "greku" te lashtesise, ne kuptimin e mirrefillte nuk ndryshon thelbesisht nga ajo e nje iliri dhe nje traku, por kultura "greke" paraqet kulmin e asaj iliro-trake. Ne fund te fundit emrat e ketyre grupfiseve te medha, nuk kane kurrfare rendesie, e rendesishme eshte qe te mos personalizohet dhe pervetesohet ajo kulture, nga kombe qe sot padrejtesisht mbajne te njejtin emer me to.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#13

Post by Mallakastrioti » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:07 pm

Ne se eshte i vlefshem rotacizmi i shkronjave :F----> V---->B

A do kishte kuptim p.sh ne pjesen e shkeputur me poshte p.sh qe fjala "AMFIFALOS" do kthehej ne :AMVIVALOS=AMBIBALOS= AMBI BALOS=A M BI BALL=Eshte me dy (ne) ball

si dhe fjala tjeter "TRIFALIA" e nenvizuar me te kuq do kthehej ne "TRIVALIA= TRIBALIA" ?

Image

Edhe pse autori me poshte nuk eshte shume i qarte e lidh disi me sanskrisht qe mendoj se ka te njejtin kuptim si ne shqip:
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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#14

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:10 pm

Ne varesi te pozicionit ne fjale, po te zevendesosh:

ph----b
b---mp----mb
n---nt---nd
t-------d
f---th

Mund te merren me qindra dhe mijera fjale shqip nga """greqishtja"".

Kjo eshte e vertete dhe per τρυφαλεια ku φ~ph~b
psh:
ἣ δὲ κυλινδομένη καναχὴν ἔχε ποσσὶν ὑφ᾽ ἵππων
795αὐλῶπις τρυφάλεια, μιάνθησαν δὲ ἔθειραι
αἵματι καὶ κονίῃσι: πάρος γε μὲν οὐ θέμις ἦεν
τρυφάλεια qe perkthehet helmetë dhe φάλεια qe eshte koka e ""greqishtes"" ose balli i i shqipes.
φάλει=balli
ku φ=ph=b

Τριβαλλι(ilirisht)=τρυφάλει("""greqisht""")
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Nje shqipe e kulluar mes"""grekeve""

#15

Post by Orakulli » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:27 pm

Amb i ball os=mban ballin=eshte i pari, eshte drejtuesi, eshte pjesa me siperme e figures se nje njeriu,pjesa e siperme filluese e fytyres.Eshte "ball" por jo vetem fytyre, spese mund te jete dhe "ball" i rakise.
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