Moderator: Hymniarber
Pra territorri i Amanteve nuk eshte atje ku e paraqet "hartografi" mashtrues grek, por perfshin territoret qe nga Malet Keraune deri aty ku vizatohet fisi i Amanteve, pra eshte nje toke ilire.27. [O RIKOI. And the Orikoi occupy [. . .] of the Amanian territory.] And the [Amantians],from Boulinoi as far as here, are Illyrians. And the mouth of the Ionian gulf is from Keraunian mountains as far as cape Iapygia. And up to Hydroëis city in Iapygia from the Keraunian mountains, the stades of the voyage across are about 500, [which] is the mouth of the gulf: and the places inside are the Ionian gulf. There are many harbours in the Adriatic: and the same thing is the Adriatic and the Ionian.
Shihni me vemendje: "Hyllejte(Bylliotet) zene nje terretor vetem pak me te vogel se Peloponezi, gje qe do te thote me shume se Jugu i Shqiperise se sotme, kurse "hartografi" eshte "kujdesur" tu jape atyre vetem nje cope te vogel toke.22. ILLYRIOI. And after Libyrnians are the Illyrian nation, and the Illyrians live along beside the sea as far as Chaonia by Kerkyra, the island of Alkinoös. And there is a Hellenic city here,which has the name Herakleia, with a harbour. The barbarians called Lotus-eaters are the following: Hierastamnai, Boulinoi (Hyllinoi), coterminous with Boulinoi the Hylloi. And these say Hyllos son of Herakles settled them: and they are barbarians. And they occupy a peninsula a little lesser than the Peloponnese. And from peninsula parastonion* is upright: Boulinoi live beside this. And Boulinoi are an Illyric nation. And the coastal voyage is of the territory of Boulinoi of a long day up to Nestos river.
Fakti qe ata paraqiten here si ilire dhe here si epirote tregon ne menyre te pakundershtueshme se iliret nga epirotet nuk ndryshonin shume etnikisht.Ἠπειρῶται δ' εἰσὶ καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ οἱ ὑπερκείμενοι καὶ συνάπτοντες τοῖς Ἰλλυρικοῖς ὄρεσι, τραχεῖαν οἰκοῦντες χώραν, Μολοττοί τε καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες καὶ Αἴθικες καὶ Τυμφαῖοι καὶ Ὀρέσται Παρωραῖοί τε καὶ Ἀτιντᾶνες,
The Amphilochians are Epeirotes; and so are the peoples who are situated above them and border on the Illyrian mountains, inhabiting a rugged country--I mean the Molossi, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei, the Orestae, and also the Paroraei and the Atintanes..
| ἀναμέμικται δὲ τούτοις τὰ Ἰλλυρικὰ ἔθνη τὰ πρὸς τῷ νοτίῳ μέρει τῆς ὀρεινῆς καὶ τὰ ὑπὲρ τοῦ Ἰονίου κόλπου· τῆς γὰρ Ἐπιδάμνου καὶ τῆς Ἀπολλωνίας μέχρι τῶν Κεραυνίων ὑπεροικοῦσι Βυλλίονές τε καὶ Ταυλάντιοι καὶ Παρθῖνοι καὶ Βρῦγοι· | But the Illyrian tribes which are near the southern part of the mountainous country and those which are above the Ionian Gulf are intermingled with these peoples; for above Epidamnus and Apollonia as far as the Ceraunian Mountains dwell the Bylliones, the Taulantii, the Parthini, [b]and the Brygi[/b] |
| Thus fared the fleet; and meanwhile Mardonios and the land-army while encamping in Macedonia were attacked in the night by the Brygian Thracians, and many of them were slain by the Brygians and Mardonios himself was wounded | Μαρδονίῳ δὲ καὶ τῷ πεζῷ στρατοπεδευομένῳ ἐν Μακεδονίῃ νυκτὸς Βρύγοι Θρήικες ἐπεχείρησαν· καί σφεων πολλοὺς φονεύουσι οἱ Βρύγοι, Μαρδόνιον δὲ αὐτὸν τρωματίζουσι |
| The Phrygians had an equipment very like that of the Paphlagonians with some slight difference. Now the Phrygians, as the Macedonians say, used to be called Brigians during the time that they were natives of Europe and dwelt with the Macedonians; but after they had changed into Asia, with their country they changed also their name and were called Phrygians. The Armenians were armed just like the Phrygians, being settlers from the Phrygians. Of these two together the commander was Artochmes, who was married to a daughter of Dareios | [b]Φρύγες[/b] δὲ ἀγχοτάτω τῆς Παφλαγονικῆς σκευὴν εἶχον, ὀλίγον παραλλάσσοντες. οἱ δὲ Φρύγες, ὡς Μακεδόνες λέγουσι, ἐκαλέοντο [b]Βρίγες[/b] χρόνον ὅσον Εὐρωπήιοι ἐόντες σύνοικοι ἦσαν Μακεδόσι, μεταβάντες δὲ ἐς τὴν Ἀσίην ἅμα τῇ χώρῃ καὶ τὸ οὔνομα μετέβαλον ἐς Φρύγας. Ἀρμένιοι δὲ κατά περ Φρύγες ἐσεσάχατο, ἐόντες Φρυγῶν ἄποικοι. τούτων συναμφοτέρων ἦρχε Ἀρτόχμης Δαρείου ἔχων θυγατέρα |
por jo vetem qe s'jane greke, por dhe greqishten vetem nje pjese e tyre e mesuan nga kolonistet e Ambrakise, kurse shumica se mesoi kurre:Ἠπειρῶται δ' εἰσὶ καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ οἱ ὑπερκείμενοι καὶ συνάπτοντες τοῖς Ἰλλυρικοῖς ὄρεσι, τραχεῖαν οἰκοῦντες χώραν, Μολοττοί τε καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες καὶ Αἴθικες καὶ Τυμφαῖοι καὶ Ὀρέσται Παρωραῖοί τε καὶ Ἀτιντᾶνες
The Amphilochians are Epeirotes; and so are the peoples who are situated above them and border on the Illyrian mountains, inhabiting a rugged country--I mean the Molossi, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei, the Orestae, and also the Paroraei and the Atintanes,
Dua te theksoj dhe njehere qe kolonite nuk jane pjese natyrale e nje etnie, ato jane me se shumti perqendrime njerezish qe merren me tregti, dhe nuk pasqyrojne popullsine reale vendase. Te gjitha qytetet "greke" ne Iliri dhe Epir ishin koloni(Apollonia, Ambrakia etj)26. TAULANTIOI. And of the Taulantians is the Illyric nation, in which Epidamnos is, and a river flows beside the city which has the name Palamnos. And out of Epidamnos to Apollonia, a Hellenic city, is a road of two days. And Apollonia is distant from the sea 50 stades, and the river Aias flows beside the city. And from Apollonia into Amantia is 320 stades. And the Aias river from the Pindos Mountain flows beside Apollonia. [And] towards [Amantia] inland, somewhat into the Ionian gulf is Orikos. It comes down from Orikia to the sea 90 stades, and from Amantia 60 stades. Sharing a border with all these in the interior are Atintanes above Orikia and Karia* as far as Dodonia. And in the Kestris territory is said to be a pedion, name Erytheia. Here Geryones is said to come and pasture his oxen. By these places are the Keraunian mountains in Epeiros, and there is an island beside these places, a small one, which has the name Sason. From here to Orikos city is a coastal voyage of a day’s third part.
| Αἰτωλῶν δ' οὐκ ἀνεκτόν: ποίας δὲ κελεύετέ με" [7] φησὶν " [8] ἐκχωρεῖν Ἑλλάδος καὶ πῶς ἀφορίζετε ταύτην; αὐτῶν γὰρ Αἰτωλῶν οὐκ εἰσὶν Ἕλληνες οἱ πλείους: τὸ γὰρ τῶν Ἀγραῶν ἔθνος καὶ τὸ τῶν Ἀποδωτῶν, ἔτι δὲ τῶν Ἀμφιλόχων, οὐκ ἔστιν Ἑλλάς. [9] ἢ τούτων μὲν παραχωρεῖτέ μοι;" | 'What is this Greece which you demand that I should evacuate, and what how do you define Greece?. Certainly most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks!. The countries of the Agraae, the Apodotea, and the Amphilochians cannot be regarded as Greeks. So do you allow to me to remain in those territories' |
| I. Ἰλλυριοὺς Ἕλληνες ἡγοῦνται τοὺς ὑπέρ τε Μακεδονίαν καὶ Θρᾴκην ἀπὸ Χαόνων καὶ Θεσπρωτῶν ἐπὶ ποταμὸν Ἴστρον. καὶ τοῦτ' ἐστὶ τῆς χώρας τὸ μῆκος, εὖρος δ' ἐκ Μακεδόνων τε καὶ Θρᾳκῶν τῶν ὀρείων ἐπὶ Παιονας καὶ τὸν Ἰόνιον καὶ τὰ πρόποδα τῶν Ἄλπεων. καὶ ἔστι τὸ μὲν εὖρος ἡμερῶν πέντε, τὸ δὲ μῆκος τριάκοντα, καθὰ καὶ τοῖς Ἕλλησιν εἴρηται. Ῥωμαίων δὲ τὴν χώραν μετρησαμένων ἔστιν ὑπὲρ ἑξακισχιλίους σταδίους τὸ μῆκος, καὶ τὸ πλάτος ἀμφὶ τοὺς χιλίους καὶ διακοσίους. | The Greeks call those people Illyrians who occupy the region beyond Macedonia and Thrace from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the river Danube. This is the length of the country. Its breadth is from Macedonia and the mountains of Thrace to Pannonia and the Adriatic and the foothills of the Alps. Its breadth is five days' journey and its length thirty . The Romans measured the country and found its length to be upward of 1,000 kilometers(changed in our system) and its width about 220. |
Une i kam rreshtuar argumentat, mund te punohet mbi to dhe te behet nje video. Mendoj se do te dale video e mire.Mallakastrioti wrote:Te merremi disi me kete teme Zeus(kam fjalen per nje video)...sepse kete harte e kam ndeshur edhe une ne disa forume te ndryshme qe merret si reference.Mendoj se ka ardhur koha tua mbyllim gojen me fakte grekeve te sotem qe pretendojne nje lashtesi qe nuk u perket...ftoj gjithe antaret e tjere te marrin pjese ne kete teme dhe te sjellim fakte.Flm.
Kam marre nje mesazh nga Qielli i Kalter, ku ajo angazhohet qe do ndihmoje ne kete drejtim. I kerkoj ndjese qe nuk i kam kthyer pergjigje, por tani do te deshiroja qe ajo te na ndihmonte. E falenderoj paraprakisht.Mallakastrioti wrote:
Do ju lutesha vetem te me ndihmonit me perkthimin ne anglisht te pershkrimit qe ka dhene Zeus...
Zeus10 wrote:Wikipedia eshte nje website shume i mire, por fatkeqesisht perdoret si nje instrument nga lobe dhe klane te caktuar, per te shtremberuar realitetin dhe per ta paraqituar ate sipas interesave te propagandes nacionaliste dhe me gjere se kaq. Ne perpjekjet e tyre per te gjetur nje identitet, greket moderne, bazohen ne historite per nje komb fantazme(greket e vjeter), qe thuhet se ka jetuar ne lashtesi. Duke perdorur argumente te ndryshem dhe te dobet, ata i ligjerojne ato nepermjet mjeteve te tilla siç jane hartat, rrefimet etj.
Nje harte qe kerkon te shtremberoj realitetin eshte dhe e meposhtmja:
:Wikipedia is a very good materialized initiative, as an informative website, but unfortunately is being used as a tool by certain lobbies and clans, to distort reality especially in the subjects related to the nationalism, history and culture. This website is used very effectively from the clans of Greek propaganda too. In their efforts to find an identity, Modern Greeks, build histories for a phantasm nation(the old Greeks), who is said to have lived in ancient times. Using different and weak arguments, they legitimize them through means, such as maps, tales, etc.
A map created to distort the reality is the following
Propaganda greke, synon ti paraqese epirotet dhe maqedonet greke, ajo eshte e paturpshme kur mundohet ti largoje sa me ne Veri iliret, duke shtremberuar dhe faktet e pakundershtueshme qe na vine nga lashtesia. Do ta shohim me poshte pse.
Greek propaganda, intends to introduce Epirote and Macedonians as Greeks! It is shameless when they are trying to move the Illyrian borders more to the north, trying to distort irrefutable facts that come to us from antiquity.
We will see below why.
Zeus10 wrote:Le te fillojme me
Byllis dhe ByllionetLet's begin with
Amantia dhe AmantetByllis and Byllionet
Amantia and Amantet
Te gjendur para fakteve te pakundershtueshme per qenien ilire te Byllioneve dhe Amanteve, hartografet e propagandes greke, vetem sa i kane 'shtyre' gjeografikisht ata me ne Veri duke i larguar ata ne menyre paradoksale nga kryeqendrat e tyre perkatesisht Byllis dhe Amantia.
Le te shohim çfare thote "greku" Skylaks i Karindise:
Standing in the front of incontrovertible evidence for the existence Amantia and Byllioneve Illyrian, cartographers of greek propaganda, have just 'pushed' them geographically more to the north in paradoxical means from their respective capitals Amantia and Byllis .
Let us see what "greek" Skylaks of Karindise says:Pra territorri i Amanteve nuk eshte atje ku e paraqet "hartografi" mashtrues grek, por perfshin territoret qe nga Malet Keraune deri aty ku vizatohet fisi i Amanteve, pra eshte nje toke ilire.27. [O RIKOI. And the Orikoi occupy [. . .] of the Amanian territory.] And the [Amantians],from Boulinoi as far as here, are Illyrians. And the mouth of the Ionian gulf is from Keraunian mountains as far as cape Iapygia. And up to Hydroëis city in Iapygia from the Keraunian mountains, the stades of the voyage across are about 500, [which] is the mouth of the gulf: and the places inside are the Ionian gulf. There are many harbours in the Adriatic: and the same thing is the Adriatic and the Ionian.
E njejta gje eshte e vlefshme dhe per Byllinet ose Hyllinet, ata jane ilire dhe gjithe territori perreth qendrave te tyre eshte ilir, ndryshe nga çeshte vizatuar ne harte:
So the Amantia territory is not where is presented in "cartography" by the greek rogue, but includes territories from Keraune Mountains to where the tribe of Amantia is drawn, therefore is Illyrian land. The same is valid for Byllinet or Hyllinet, they are Illyrians and the all centers around their territory is Illyian, differently as it has been drawn on the map:Shihni me vemendje: "Hyllejte(Bylliotet) zene nje terretor vetem pak me te vogel se Peloponezi, gje qe do te thote me shume se Jugu i Shqiperise se sotme, kurse "hartografi" eshte "kujdesur" tu jape atyre vetem nje cope te vogel toke.22. ILLYRIOI. And after Libyrnians are the Illyrian nation, and the Illyrians live along beside the sea as far as Chaonia by Kerkyra, the island of Alkinoös. And there is a Hellenic city here,which has the name Herakleia, with a harbour. The barbarians called Lotus-eaters are the following: Hierastamnai, Boulinoi (Hyllinoi), coterminous with Boulinoi the Hylloi. And these say Hyllos son of Herakles settled them: and they are barbarians. And they occupy a peninsula a little lesser than the Peloponnese. And from peninsula parastonion* is upright: Boulinoi live beside this. And Boulinoi are an Illyric nation. And the coastal voyage is of the territory of Boulinoi of a long day up to Nestos river.
Dua te kujtoj se Peloponezi eshte 21,549 km² kurse gjithe Shqiperia e sotme eshte 28747 km2, pra vetem fisi i Byllioneve zinte afersisht sa 21000 km2, kjo do te thote qe territori i tyre shkonte shume me ne jug se ceshte paraqitur ne harte.
Pay attention: "Hyllejte(Bylliotet) occupied a territory only slightly smaller than the Peloponnese, which means more than South Albania today, whereas the "cartographer" has "tired" to give them only a small piece of land.
I want to remind that the Peloponnese is 21.549 km ² and all Albania today is 28.747 km2, therefore Byllioneve tribe occupied about 21.000th km2. This means that their territory spread mote to the south than what has been presented in the map.
Zeus10 wrote:Atintanes
Ne menyre abuzive jane paraqitur si Greke, por ata qartazi jane Ilire ne shume raste dhe ne ndonje rast si epirote por kurre si greke:
Strabo 007.007.008In a abusive method have been presented as Greeks, but they clearly are in many cases Illyrians and in some cases Epirote but never as a Greek:Fakti qe ata paraqiten here si ilire dhe here si epirote tregon ne menyre te pakundershtueshme se iliret nga epirotet nuk ndryshonin shume etnikisht.Ἠπειρῶται δ' εἰσὶ καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ οἱ ὑπερκείμενοι καὶ συνάπτοντες τοῖς Ἰλλυρικοῖς ὄρεσι, τραχεῖαν οἰκοῦντες χώραν, Μολοττοί τε καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες καὶ Αἴθικες καὶ Τυμφαῖοι καὶ Ὀρέσται Παρωραῖοί τε καὶ Ἀτιντᾶνες,
The Amphilochians are Epeirotes; and so are the peoples who are situated above them and border on the Illyrian mountains, inhabiting a rugged country--I mean the Molossi, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei, the Orestae, and also the Paroraei and the Atintanes..
Ne harte ata paradoksalisht jane vizatuar shume ne veri, por ne fakt ata pershkruhen prej historianeve te perziere me fiset e thesproteve ne jug.
The fact that they appear sometimes as Illyrian and as Epirote shows irrefutably that the Illyrians from the Epirote did not varied ethnically.
In the map paradoxically they have been drawn more to the north, but in fact they are described by historians mixed with tribes of Thesprotia in the south.
Zeus10 wrote:Bryget
Ne menyre abuzive jane paraqitur vetem si trakas, nderkohe qe kemi disa deshmi qe ata jane ilire:In a abusive manner have been presented only as Thraks, while we have some proof that they are Illyrian:ashtu siç kemi qe ata jane dhe trakas
ἀναμέμικται δὲ τούτοις τὰ Ἰλλυρικὰ ἔθνη τὰ πρὸς τῷ νοτίῳ μέρει τῆς ὀρεινῆς καὶ τὰ ὑπὲρ τοῦ Ἰονίου κόλπου· τῆς γὰρ Ἐπιδάμνου καὶ τῆς Ἀπολλωνίας μέχρι τῶν Κεραυνίων ὑπεροικοῦσι Βυλλίονές τε καὶ Ταυλάντιοι καὶ Παρθῖνοι καὶ Βρῦγοι· But the Illyrian tribes which are near the southern part of the mountainous country and those which are above the Ionian Gulf are intermingled with these peoples; for above Epidamnus and Apollonia as far as the Ceraunian Mountains dwell the Bylliones, the Taulantii, the Parthini, [b]and the Brygi[/b]
Herodotus Book 6.45as we have that, they are Thraks
Bryget(Briget) jane nje fis shume i rendesishem, ata jane frigasit e famshem qe therriteshin dhe bryge(Herodotus) dhe rrefimi i meposhtem tregon qe ata ishin fillimisht Bryget Ilire qe u bene thrakas vetem kur shkuan ne lindje, per tu bere perseri ilire kur u kthyen ne tokat e tyre te origjines:
Thus fared the fleet; and meanwhile Mardonios and the land-army while encamping in Macedonia were attacked in the night by the Brygian Thracians, and many of them were slain by the Brygians and Mardonios himself was wounded Μαρδονίῳ δὲ καὶ τῷ πεζῷ στρατοπεδευομένῳ ἐν Μακεδονίῃ νυκτὸς Βρύγοι Θρήικες ἐπεχείρησαν· καί σφεων πολλοὺς φονεύουσι οἱ Βρύγοι, Μαρδόνιον δὲ αὐτὸν τρωματίζουσι
Herodotus Book 7: Polymnia [70]Bryget(Briget) are a very important tribe, they are famous frigasit that were also called bryge (Herodotus) and the following story shows that they were originally Illyrian Bryget which became Thracian only when they went east, to become again Illyrian when returned to their lands of origin:
Propaganda greke ne pamundesi per ti bere ata greke, i paraqet thjesht si trakas, pra te ndryshem nga iliret,kete e bejne duke e ditur rendesine qe kane ata ne historine e vjeter, por faktet e mesiperme jo vetem e hedhin poshte kete pretendim por dhe tregojne qe te gjitha popullsite e rajonit nuk ndryshonin shume prej njera-tjetres, dhe perpjekja per ti bere ata te ndryshem eshte nje perpjekje e deshtuar e propagandes grek.
The Phrygians had an equipment very like that of the Paphlagonians with some slight difference. Now the Phrygians, as the Macedonians say, used to be called Brigians during the time that they were natives of Europe and dwelt with the Macedonians; but after they had changed into Asia, with their country they changed also their name and were called Phrygians. The Armenians were armed just like the Phrygians, being settlers from the Phrygians. Of these two together the commander was Artochmes, who was married to a daughter of Dareios [b]Φρύγες[/b] δὲ ἀγχοτάτω τῆς Παφλαγονικῆς σκευὴν εἶχον, ὀλίγον παραλλάσσοντες. οἱ δὲ Φρύγες, ὡς Μακεδόνες λέγουσι, ἐκαλέοντο [b]Βρίγες[/b] χρόνον ὅσον Εὐρωπήιοι ἐόντες σύνοικοι ἦσαν Μακεδόσι, μεταβάντες δὲ ἐς τὴν Ἀσίην ἅμα τῇ χώρῃ καὶ τὸ οὔνομα μετέβαλον ἐς Φρύγας. Ἀρμένιοι δὲ κατά περ Φρύγες ἐσεσάχατο, ἐόντες Φρυγῶν ἄποικοι. τούτων συναμφοτέρων ἦρχε Ἀρτόχμης Δαρείου ἔχων θυγατέρα
Greek Propaganda unable to make them Greek, presents them just as Thrakas, so different from the Illyrians. They do so knowing the importance they have in the ancient history, but the facts above not only reject this claims, but indicate that all populations of the region did not change much from each other, and attempts to make them different, is a failed effort of Greek propaganda.