KUSH ISHIN THRAKET? LIDHJET ILIRO-THRAKE

[ALBPelasgian]

Thraket , simbas pershkrimit te Herodotit, ishin popoulli i dyte ne numer pas hindusve. Herodoti metutje i pershkruan si nje popull gjithnje i percare prej nga rrjedh edhe dobesia kronike e tyre. 'Sikur te mund te bashkoheshin ata, do te krijonin popullin me te forte ne bote' pohon po aty Herodoti. Thraket zinin pjesen lindore te Siujdheses Ballkanike duke pasur si kufinje jugor Detin Egje, ate lindor Detin e Zi, verior tokat skite, kurse ne lindje asnjehere nuk eshte percaktuar nje kufi i tille. Pikerisht, my mospercaktim i kufinjeve ngre nje ceshtje shume te rendesishme: A ka gjasa qe thraket dhe iliret te ishin popull i njejte, ndonese te ndare ne entitete te ndryshme gjeografike?
Shkenca moderne e historise e pranon nje simbioze iliro-thrake ne Ballkanin Qendor qe ndjek vijen e lumit Axios (Vardar) dhe Moraven e sotme. Madje, disa thone se Dardanet dhe Paionet jane fise simbiotike iliro-thrake.

Madje, pervec kesaj ekziston edhe nje numer i kosnderueshem perkimesh thrako-shqipe.

Kontributi i juaj ne kete ceshtje-teme eshte i mirseardhur!

[Zeus10]

Thraket , simbas pershkrimit te Herodotit, ishin popoulli i dyte ne numer pas hindusve. Herodoti metutje i pershkruan si nje popull gjithnje i percare prej nga rrjedh edhe dobesia kronike e tyre. 'Sikur te mund te bashkoheshin ata, do te krijonin popullin me te forte ne bote' pohon po aty Herodoti. Thraket zinin pjesen lindore te Siujdheses Ballkanike duke pasur si kufinje jugor Detin Egje, ate lindor Detin e Zi, verior tokat skite, kurse ne lindje asnjehere nuk eshte percaktuar nje kufi i tille. Pikerisht, my mospercaktim i kufinjeve ngre nje ceshtje shume te rendesishme: A ka gjasa qe thraket dhe iliret te ishin popull i njejte, ndonese te ndare ne entitete te ndryshme gjeografike?
Shkenca moderne e historise e pranon nje simbioze iliro-thrake ne Ballkanin Qendor qe ndjek vijen e lumit Axios (Vardar) dhe Moraven e sotme. Madje, disa thone se Dardanet dhe Paionet jane fise simbiotike iliro-thrake.

Madje, pervec kesaj ekziston edhe nje numer i kosnderueshem perkimesh thrako-shqipe.

Kontributi i juaj ne kete ceshtje-teme eshte i mirseardhur!

Duhet pasur shume kujdes ne kriterin qe perdornin te lashtet per termin 'popull', qe natyrisht nuk mund te jete i njejte me ato qe perdoren sot. Une mendoj se nuk ka qene gjuha ajo qe i diferonce popujt(te pakten ato te Ballkanit) por mund te kete seti i konfigurimit te adhurimit ndaj hyjnive. Persa ju perket trakeve dhe ilireve, eshte interesante se nese nje fis i caktuar shpallet si trak prej njerit autor i njejti fis permendet si ilir prej nje autori tjeter, kjo do te thote se iliret dhe traket duhet te kene pasur pak diferenca gjuhesore-kulturore, dhe duke perdorur kendveshtrimin e sotem, ata mund te quhen i njejti popull.

[ALBPelasgian]

Pikerisht eshte kjo i nderuari Zeus10! Gjithsesi eshte e sakte qe nuk mund te flitet per 'popull' ne kuptimin cfare ne i japim sot, mirepo sic e vute ne pah edhe Ju, ngaterresa dhe konfidimi i shpeshte qe bejne autoret antike ne lidhje me fise te ndermjetme ne Ballkanin Qendror duke i quajtur here thrake here ilire (kam fjalen per myzet, triballet, paionet etj) eshte megjithate njefare shenjuesi per afersine etnike ne mes ilireve dhe thrakeve. Ne te mire te ketij pohimi flet edhe ky pasazh qe flet mbi perkimet toponomistike ne Iliri dhe Thraki:

Others such as I.I. Russu argue that there should have been major similarities between Illyrian and Thracian, and a common linguistic branch (not merely a Sprachbund) is probable. Among the Thraco-Illyrian correspondences Russu considers are the following:
Illyrian Daco-Thracian Remarks
Abroi Abre- Abre- is an element taken from certain Thracian anthroponyms
Aploi, Aplus, Apulia Apuli, Appulus, Apulum
Bilia, Bilios Bila
Dardi, Dardani Dardanos, Darda-para
Saprinus Sapri-sara
Separi Sapaioi
Sita Sita, Seita
Tribulium Triballi, Tribanta
Zorada Zar-, Zur-

[ALBPelasgian]

Ose per afersine gjuhesore:

Not many Thraco-Illyrian correspondences are definite, and a number may be incorrect, even from the list above. However, Sorin Paliga states:[8] "According to the available data, we may surmise that Thracian and Illyrian were mutually understandable, e.g. like Czech and Slovak, in one extreme, or like Spanish and Portuguese, at the other."
Paliga, S. (2001–2002). "Pre-Slavic and Pre-Romance Place-Names in Southeast Europe". Orpheus (Sofia) 11–12: 85–132.

"There are a great many similarities which enable us to consider that Thracian
and Illyrian were two very closely related languages"
~We, the Thracians: and our multimillenary history~ By Iosif Constantin Drăgan 1976, page 122~)
‎

[Leka_Dukagjini]

Ne librin e tij Mathieu Aref Thraket dhe Iliret i konsideron nje popull, dhe thot qe shqiptaret jane pasardhesit te drejperdrejt te thrako-ilireve.

[alfeko sukaraku]

Thraka eshte banuar nga Pellazget qe nga kohet me te vjetra.Sote popullsia vendore ka karakteristika myslimane kryesisht ...edhe myslimanizme me ndihmen e turqis ka fituar te drejten minoritare.Greket si dobica qe kane qene e mbeten ,nuk flasin per minoritet kombetare por per minoritet FETARE................ndersa ne shqiperi te bejn greke me zore vete qeverrit shqiptare.Sidoqofte ky jutub qe po paraqes nuk munde te tregoj me saktesi gjarjet e vjetra,por po e permendim vetem e vetem qe te marim nje ide nga cilet banohet Thraqi sote...aty nga fundi vini re edhe priftin papa Xhemalin....

eshte per tu permendur ketu dokumenti qe tregon se turqit edhe greket shkembyen popullsin me baze fene edhe jo kombesin.

une jam shqiptare..une jam turke....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDzIqia_V0A&eurel

[ALBPelasgian]

A famous Phrygian word is bekos, meaning "bread". According to Herodotus (Histories 2.2) Pharaoh Psammetichus I wanted to establish the original language. For this purpose, he ordered two children to be reared by a shepherd, forbidding him to let them hear a single word, and charging him to report the children's first utterance. After two years, the shepherd reported that on entering their chamber, the children came up to him, extending their hands, calling bekos. Upon enquiry, the pharaoh discovered that this was the Phrygian word for "wheat bread", after which the Egyptians conceded that the Phrygian nation was older than theirs. The word bekos is also attested several times in Palaeo-Phrygian inscriptions on funerary stelae. Many modern scholars suggest that it is cognate to Albanian bukë meaning "bread" and to English bake(PIE *bheHg-).

The etymology is defended in O. Panagl & B. Kowal, "Zur etymologischen Darstellung von Restsprachen", in: A. Bammesberger (ed.), Das etymologische Wörterbuch, Regensburg 1983, pp. 186-7. It is contested in Benjamin W. Fortson, Indo-European Language and Culture: An Introduction. Blackwell, 2004. ISBN 1405103167, p. 409.

Duke pasur parasysh, metoden e ndjekur nga faraoni Psametik per te gjetur gjuhen me te lashte, del se Shqipja eshte e tille.

Other Phrygian words include:
anar, 'husband', from PIE *ner- "man"; cf. Ancient Greek anÄ"r "man, husband", Armenian ayr "father-in-law", Albanian njeri "man, person".

[ALBPelasgian]

The Illyrians are described as resembling the savage
Thracians in their manner, as tattooing their
bodies, !i.s ottering human sacrifices to their deities,
but as honouring women, who even held chieftain-
ships amongst them.

Chambers's encyclopaedia: a dictionary of universal knowledge, Volume 6‎ - Page 84
Juvenile Nonfiction - 1901

[Zeus10]

Herodotus Book 2.2 Euterpe

Now the Egyptians, before the time when Psammetichos became king over them, were wont to suppose that they had come into being first of all men; but since the time when Psammetichos having become king desired to know what men had come into being first, they suppose that the Phrygians came into being before themselves, but they themselves before all other men. Now Psammetichos, when he was not able by inquiry to find out any means of knowing who had come into being first of all men, contrived a device of the following kind:--Taking two new- born children belonging to persons of the common sort he gave them to a shepherd to bring up at the place where his flocks were, with a manner of bringing up such as I shall say, charging him namely that no man should utter any word in their presence, and that they should be placed by themselves in a room where none might come, and at the proper time he should bring to them she-goats, and when he had satisfied them with milk he should do for them whatever else was needed. These things Psammetichos did and gave him this charge wishing to hear what word the children would let break forth first, after they had ceased from wailings without sense. And accordingly so it came to pass; for after a space of two years had gone by, during which the shepherd went on acting so, at length, when he opened the door and entered, both the children fell before him in entreaty and uttered the word [color=#0000FF][b]bekos[/b][/color], stretching forth their hands. At first when he heard this the shepherd kept silence; but since this word was often repeated, as he visited them constantly and attended to them, at last he declared the matter to his master, and at his command he brought the children before his face. Then Psammetichos having himself also heard it, began to inquire about what nation of men named anything bekos, and inquiring he found that the Phrygians had this name for bread. In this manner and guided by an indication such as this, the Egyptians were brought to allow that the Phrygians were a more ancient people than themselves.

οἱ δὲ Αἰγύπτιοι, πρὶν μὲν ἢ Ψαμμήτιχον σφέων βασιλεῦσαι, ἐνόμιζον ἑωυτοὺς πρώτους γενέσθαι πάντων ἀνθρώπων· ἐπειδὴ δὲ Ψαμμήτιχος βασιλεύσας ἠθέλησε εἰδέναι οἵτινες γενοίατο πρῶτοι, ἀπὸ τούτου νομίζουσι Φρύγας προτέρους γενέσθαι ἑωυτῶν, τῶν δὲ ἄλλων ἑωυτούς. Ψαμμήτιχος δὲ ὡς οὐκ ἐδύνατο πυνθανόμενος πόρον οὐδένα τούτου ἀνευρεῖν, οἳ γενοίατο πρῶτοι ἀνθρώπων, ἐπιτεχνᾶται τοιόνδε. παιδία δύο νεογνὰ ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἐπιτυχόντων δίδωσι ποιμένι τρέφειν ἐς τὰ ποίμνια τροφήν τινα τοιήνδε, ἐντειλάμενος μηδένα ἀντίον αὐτῶν μηδεμίαν φωνὴν ἱέναι, ἐν στέγῃ δὲ ἐρήμῃ ἐπ᾽ ἑωυτῶν κέεσθαι αὐτά, καὶ τὴν ὥρην ἐπαγινέειν σφι αἶγας, πλήσαντα δὲ γάλακτος τἆλλα διαπρήσσεσθαι· ταῦτα δὲ ἐποίεέ τε καὶ ἐνετέλλετο Ψαμμήτιχος θέλων ἀκοῦσαι τῶν παιδίων, ἀπαλλαχθέντων τῶν ἀσήμων κνυζημάτων, ἥντινα φωνὴν ῥήξουσι πρώτην· τά περ ὦν καὶ ἐγένετο. ὡς γὰρ διέτης χρόνος ἐγεγόνεε ταῦτα τῷ ποιμένι πρήσσοντι, ἀνοίγοντι τὴν θύρην καὶ ἐσιόντι τὰ παιδία ἀμφότερα προσπίπτοντα [color=#0000FF][b]βεκὸς[/b][/color] ἐφώνεον, ὀρέγοντα τὰς χεῖρας. τὰ μὲν δὴ πρῶτα ἀκούσας ἥσυχος ἦν ὁ ποιμήν· ὡς δὲ πολλάκις φοιτέοντι καὶ ἐπιμελομένῳ πολλὸν ἦν τοῦτο τὸ ἔπος, οὕτω δὴ σημήνας τῷ δεσπότῃ ἤγαγε τὰ παιδία κελεύσαντος ἐς ὄψιν τὴν ἐκείνου. ἀκούσας δὲ καὶ αὐτὸς ὁ Ψαμμήτιχος ἐπυνθάνετο οἵτινες ἀνθρώπων βεκός τι καλέουσι, πυνθανόμενος δὲ εὕρισκε Φρύγας καλέοντας τὸν ἄρτον. οὕτω συνεχώρησαν Αἰγύπτιοι καὶ τοιούτῳ σταθμησάμενοι πρήγματι τοὺς Φρύγας πρεσβυτέρους εἶναι ἑωυτῶν. ὧδε μὲν γενέσθαι τῶν ἱρέων τοῦ Ἡφαίστου τοῦ ἐν Μέμφι ἤκουον· Ἕλληνες δὲ λέγουσι ἄλλα τε μάταια πολλὰ καὶ ὡς γυναικῶν τὰς γλώσσας ὁ Ψαμμήτιχος ἐκταμὼν τὴν δίαιταν οὕτω ἐποιήσατο τῶν παίδων παρὰ ταύτῃσι τῇσι γυναιξί.

Nuk me kujtohet cili popull i thote bukes buke??

[ALBPelasgian]

Nuk me kujtohet cili popull i thote bukes buke??

Materiali i Herodotit ku rrefehet metoda eksperimentale e gjetjes se gjuhes me te vjeter eshte nje Bingo mbi lashtesine e Shqipes. Zeus, per te perforcuar dhe siguruar me mire kete fakt qe eshte ne anen tone, a e di ne greqishten e lashte cila ishte fjala gjegjese per Bukë? Po Bizantinet moderne c'fjale perdorin per buken?

[Zeus10]

Nuk me kujtohet cili popull i thote bukes buke??

Materiali i Herodotit ku rrefehet metoda eksperimentale e gjetjes se gjuhes me te vjeter eshte nje Bingo mbi lashtesine e Shqipes. Zeus, per te perforcuar dhe siguruar me mire kete fakt qe eshte ne anen tone, a e di ne greqishten e lashte cila ishte fjala gjegjese per Bukë? Po Bizantinet moderne c'fjale perdorin per buken?

Natyrisht qe e di. Eshte fjala sit-os (σίτος) dhe ka te beje me fjalen sitë, pra me miellin ose me fjalen zë(zihet buka), sepse fjala korresponduese ""greke"" eshte sei-ein(ne lidhore).

[ALBPelasgian]

Mrekulli fare! Do te ishte mire qe ose une ose Ju te benim nje video perkitazi me kete problem! Them qe pasi eshte vikend, une jam me i ngeshem ne kete drejtim! Si thua?!

[Zeus10]

Mrekulli fare! Do te ishte mire qe ose une ose Ju te benim nje video perkitazi me kete problem! Them qe pasi eshte vikend, une jam me i ngeshem ne kete drejtim! Si thua?!

Une mendoj qe ky eshte nje argument shume i fuqishem ne duart tona, dhe mendoj qe ne te ardhmen ti kushtojme nje material te kujdesshem. Nuk dua ta konsumojme shpejt e shpejt. Gjithashtu ceshtja e frigasve, eshte e gjate dhe komplekse, nuk mendoj se do te arrinim per nje fundjave ti ezauronim te gjithe problematiken per ta.

[ALBPelasgian]

Une mendoj qe ky eshte nje argument shume i fuqishem ne duart tona, dhe mendoj qe ne te ardhmen ti kushtojme nje material te kujdesshem. Nuk dua ta konsumojme shpejt e shpejt. Gjithashtu ceshtja e frigasve, eshte e gjate dhe komplekse, nuk mendoj se do te arrinim per nje fundjave ti ezauronim te gjithe problematiken per ta.

Keto jane fjale sikur t'i kem thene prej vetes! Ky ne fakt, duhet te jete edhe nje paralajmerim dhe keshille per ne: qe temat dhe teorite qe i shpalosim publikisht para opinionit duhet te jene te persosura, aq sa i kemi mundesite per t'i persosur me materiale nga me te ndryshmet.

Perndryshe, po u ngutem, po u beme disi euforik ne shfaqjen e cdo argumenti (pa e perpunuar paraprakisht) mund te jete demtues dhe do te konsumohej pa bere efektin e deshiruar.

Sa i perket Frigjise, frigjeve dhe gjuhes se tyre duhet pasur kujdes dhe ndjekur nje vije e drejte e te argumentuarit, per shkak se Frigjia po behet sec here pre e nje prirjeje per ta helenizuar ate.

[alfeko sukaraku]

Alb

ekzistojn plote mbishkrime Frige qe jane lexuar ne gjuhen shqipe,ashtu sikurse edhe nga nje kohe e caktuar edhe me vone shfaqet edhe greqishtja e shkruajtur me alfabetin frige..jonikun pak a shume.

kjo ceshtje nuk munde te diskutohet per momentin nder shqiptaret.klasa intelektuale shqiptare nuk eshte e gatshme qe te punoj te zgjidhin ceshtjen iliropellazge