"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

Flisni për historinë e këtyre dy rajoneve shumë të rëndësishëm, popujve dhe racave që e kanë banuar dhe e banojnë.
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MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#1

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:40 am

Per Maqedonine po flitet e po flitet deri ne paskajesi. Me e keqja eshte se rreth te drejtes historike per Maqedonine po e bejne mejdanin dy popuj (shtete) qe nuk kane lidhje me pronarin historik te Maqedonise se Lashte.

Ceshtja ne duhet apo nuk duhet te emerohet IRMJa si Republike e Maqedonise po ze vend edhe ne qarqet me te larta te politikberjes boterore. Disa u japin te drejte Grekeve per gjoja 'helenicitetin' e Maqedonise, kurse te tjeret thone se duhet te respektohet identiteti maqedonas i sllaveve te IRJM-se. Por, megjithate ze vend pyetja: Sa eshte i vertete 'maqedonizmi' i seciles pale? Ne te vertete ka ndonje baze historike apo thjesht eshte nje 'maqedonizem' i prodhuar nga qellime politike. Me gjase duket se eshte kjo!

Te dyja palet vazhdojne te propagandojne per Maqedonine duke e paraqitur si prone vetjake. Ne nje ane Greket me parulla ekstremiste te tipit 'Maqedonia - 4000 vjet qyeteterim grek'! kurse ne anen tjeter sllavet me kunderparullen 'Ne jemi pasardhesit e Aleksandrit te Madh'.

Jashte ketij debati mbeten vetem shqiptaret. Ata u terhoqen menjane duke e pandehur se ceshtja e historise se Maqedonise nuk eshte ceshtja qe ka te beje me ne.
Megjithate, jane vete greket dhe sllavet qe deftojne se kjo ceshtje ka te beje pikerisht me ne? Dhe ja pse:

"Është interesant e shum signifikativ dialogu gjatë bisedimeve ndërmjet ministreshës së punëve të jashme të Greqisë,z.Bakojani, dhe ministrit të punëve të jashtme të IRJ.të Maqedonisë, z.Milloshovski.zhvilluar në Nju Jork më 18.IX.2008.

Bakojani: Ju,Sllavët,keni ardhë këndej në shek.e VII-t pas Kr.e nuk mund të keni lidhje me popullin antik maqedon e me Maqedoninë Antike,të cilët kanë ekzistuar gjatë kushedisa shekujve të para Kr.

Milloshovski: ...dhe një gjë tjetër po ju them,zonjë: më mir është që të merremi vesht shpejt e shpejt,se ju e dijni fort mirë dhe ne e dijmë fort mirë se cilit komb i përket emri Maqedonië, prandaj është më mirë ta mbyllim këtë punë,- ju mbanie atë pje së që keni,kurse ne ta mbajmë pjesën tjetër të Maqedonisë.

Bakojani: për cilin komb e ke fjalën,për Shqiptarët? Për ata mos u mërzit fare,ata janë në gjumë e nuk dijnë se kur do të zgjohen, se po u zgjuan ata,na mori dreqi edhe neve edhe juve!...prandaj duhet të merremi vesht sa më shpejt....(Balkanweb19 shtator 2008).
(Pasazh i shkeputur nga artikulli i historianit Fehim Recani 'E verteta per Maqedonine e mocme dhe ate te sotme)

Sa me shume qe depertohet ne historine e hershme te Maqedonise aq me shume del ne pah elementi i sakrifikuar pellazgo-iliro-thrak. Ndaj, te mirseardhura jane cdo perpjekje e juaj per te ndricuar kete element te Maqedonise. Ndricimi i ketij elementi edhe do ta permbyste teresisht konceptin e tanishem se Maqedonia o eshte greke o sllave.

Greket deri me tani kane krijuar me qindra site e bloge ne internet, enkas per te propaganduar njeanshem 'helenicitetin' e Maqedonise. Nje nder keto web faqe eshte kryewebi i propagandes se specializuar greke http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum, nderkaq sllavomaqedonasit me http://www.maknews.com.
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#2

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:42 am

Simboli diellor i Vergjines qe mendohet te jete perdorur si steme e familjes mbreterore te Maqedonise:
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#3

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:47 am

Straboni, qe ne literaturen bashkohore cilesohet si babai i gjeografise pershkruese ne librin e tij te vellimshem
'Geographica' nder te tjerash shkruan per shtrirjen gjeografike te Maqedonise se Lashte, shtrirje e cila per hir e se vertetes duhet
thene se mberthen territore te banuara ne menyre derrmuese nga fise ilire dhe ato thrake.
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#4

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:50 am

Nderkaq, mbi emrin e lashte te Maqedonise dhe banoret e saj te pare Straboni thote se:
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#5

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:00 pm

Greket perpiqen qe t'ua shperlajne mendjen publikut perendimor duke ua servirur hipotezen qesharake te KryeApostullit te Tyre
Nicholas Hammond i cili thoshte se 'Emathia' eshte fjale greke qe rrjedh prej 'Amathius' qe ka kuptimin e reres/zallit, sepse rajoni i lashte
i Maqedonise origjinale eshte pershkuar nga disa lumenj. Me fjale te tjera le ta zberthejme tekstualisht citatin e Hammondit;
"... the vast plain of alluvial silt, called Emathia, "the sandy land;"
~Alexander the Great, king, commander, and statesman‎ - Page 8
I njejti shpjegim i perseritur me fjale te tjera gjendet edhe ne keta libra te tij:

The Macedonian State: origins, institutions, and history‎ - Page 359
Alexander the Great: king, commander and statesman, page 8 (botim i mevonshem)

Vene re me kujdes: Hammondi thote se Emathia eshte e barabarte me Amathius = Rere ose Zallishte, duke u bazuar ne territorin pjellor te Emathise qe pershkohet nga lumenj te ndryshem qe edhe mund te prodhojne vise zallore. Por sa i pergjigjet kjo ne te vertete vendodhjes se Emathise? Eshte vertete terren aq zallor sic thote Hammondi, meqe paska kete domethenie fjala 'Emathi'. Le t'i hedhin nje sy hartes gjeografike:
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#6

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:03 pm

Duket qarte qe shtrirja gjeografike e krahines se Emathise nuk pershkon nje terren zallor sikunder pretendon Hammondi, mirepo nje toke pjellore e pershkuar nga nje ultesire e Madhe. Prandaj, per arsye te thjeshte eshte shumehere me i logjikshem eshte shpjegimi qe ofron gjuha shqipe. Per c'shpjegim behet fjale? Shqipja ofron nje shpjegim fort te bindshem mbi domethenien e vertete te Emathise. Forme me e perafert me Emathine eshte fjala shqipe ne trajten e dialektit tosk 'E math' gje qe jep te kuptosh per nje madhesi.
Kjo madhesi mund t'i referohet pikerisht
1) FUSHES SE MADHE KU SHTRIHEJ EMATHIA. PRA VENDI I MADH.
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#7

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:12 pm

Se dyti, madhesia mund t'i referohet zgjerimit territorial:
Macedonia ante a nomine Emathionis regis, cuius prima virtutis experimenta in illis locis exstant....
HISTORIARUM PHILIPPICARUM IN EPITOMEN REDACTI A M. IUNIANO IUSTINOLIBER VII
Dmth, Justini ben fjale per nje mbret shume te guximshem qe quhej Emathius. Shqiptaret shpeshhere perdorin si sinonim te trimerise mbiemrin: I MADH'. Pra, kjo eshte mundesia e dyte e shpjegimit te emrit.

Nderkaq, mundesia e trete e shpjegimit te etimologjise Emathia gjendet rishtas nje rresht me poshte ne paragrafin e njejte te Justinit;
Huius sicuti incrementa modica, ita termini perangusti fuere


Nje territor qe vazhdimisht zgjerohej, pra madherohej/rritej ne madhesi pra Emathia vendi qe u be i madh.

Nderkaq, i njejti autor thuajse na jep nje pergjigje qe defton per karakterin jo-helen te Maqedonise se lashte:
-Sed et Caranus cum magna multitudine Graecorum sedes in Macedonia responso oraculi iussus quaerere
-Caranus also came to Emathia with a large band of Greeks, being instructed by an oracle to seek a home in Macedonia
Nese vertete Maqedonia/Emathia paska qene vendbanim grek, atehere perse qenka dashur leja/udhezimi i Karanes nga Orakulli per te kerkuar vendqendrim ne nje vend grek. Pra, e shihni se sa te pakuptimta jane gjepurat greke se Maqedonia ka qene greke.
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#8

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:24 pm

Per karakterin barbar (ilir, paion, thrak) te dhenat nga Straboni na japin nje pasqyre te sakte te struktures etnike te Maqedonise:
Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians, if one reasons from the traditions themselves: Pelops brought over peoples from Phrygia to the Peloponnesus that received its name from him; and Danaüs from Egypt; whereas the Dryopes, the Caucones, the Pelasgi, the Leleges, and other such peoples, apportioned among themselves the parts that are inside the isthmus — and also the parts outside, for Attica was once held by the Thracians who came with Eumolpus, Daulis in Phocis by Tereus, Cadmeia by the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and Boeotia itself by the Aones and Temmices and Hyantes. According to Pindar, there was a time when the Boeotian tribe was called "Syes." Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names — Cecrops, Codrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbariansMacedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes — Epeirotic tribes.
Book VII, Chapter 7
Strabo i cili gjithnje e perdor kohen e tashme ne shkrimet e tij, gje qe flet se ai ka qene duke e pershkruar gjeografine ne kohen kur ai jetoi (64 B.C - 24 A.D), tregon se Maqedonia eshte banuar nga popuj BARBARE dmth jo grek, qe s'flsinin greqisht.

Jane pikerisht greket te vetmit ne bote qe duan ta c'kuptimesojne domethenien e njemendte te konceptit 'barbar'. Koncepti barbar domethene:
The word "barbarian" comes into English from Medieval Latin barbarinus, from Latin barbaria, from Latin barbarus, from the ancient Greek word βάρβαρος (bárbaros). The word is onomatopoeic, the bar-bar representing the impression of random hubbub produced by hearing a spoken language that one cannot understand, similar to blah blah, babble or rhubarb in modern English. Related imitative forms are found in other Indo-European languages, such as Sanskrit barbara-, "stammering" or "curly-haired."
Depending on its use, the term "barbarian" either described a foreign individual or tribe whose first language was not Greek or a Greek individual or tribe speaking Greek crudely
Nese nisemi prej parimit se gjuha percakton etnine, atehere del se gjuha barbare qe flisnin keta popuj (ilire, thrake, epirote) i ben ata popuj jo-grek. E vetmja mundesi qe greket e shohin per manipulimin e konceptit 'barbar' eshte kur ia atribuoje 'fiseve qe flisnin vrazhdesisht greqishten'. Mirepo, shkenca historike me te gjitha dicpilinat e saj ka treguar se Iliret, Thraket, Paionet dhe Epirotet nuk kane folur greqisht.
The Greeks used the term as they encountered scores of different foreign cultures, including the Egyptians, Persians, Celts, Germans, Phoenicians, Etruscans, and Carthaginians. It, in fact, became a common term to refer to all foreigners.
Greket deri tani na kane borxh nje shpjegim te vogel: Meqense termi barbar nenkuptuaka 'greke te pacivilzuar' atehere Egjiptasit, Perset, Keltet, Gjermanet, Fenikasit, Etrusket dhe Kartagjenasit qenkan greke, por qe paskan pasur veshtiresi ne qyteterim, dhe paskan mbetur te prapambetur!!!!!
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#9

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:58 pm

Ne anen tjeter, Straboni e trajton Maqedonine ne te njejtin kapitull me Ilirine, gje qe flet padyshim pernjefare afrie etnike te ilirevee, epirotasve dhe maqedonasve. Maqedonia nuk figuron ne asnjerin prej kapitujve ku trajtohet gjeografikisht Greqia. Dhe per te qene me te sakte ne lidhje me kete pohim le te sherbehemi me ca paragrafe te Strabonit lidhur me njejtesine gjuhsore e zakonore te Ilirise, Epirit dhe Maqedonise:
"The Amphilochians are Epeirotes; and so are the peoples who are situated above them and border on the Illyrian mountains, inhabiting a rugged country — I mean the Molossi, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei, the Orestae, and also the Paroraei and the Atintanes, some of them being nearer to the Macedonians and others to the Ionian Gulf. It is said that Orestes once took possession of Orestias — when in exile on account of the murder of his mother — and left the country bearing his name; and that he also founded a city and called it Argos Oresticum. But the Illyrian tribes which are near the southern part of the mountainous country and those which are above the Ionian Gulf are intermingled with these peoples; for above Epidamnus and Apollonia as far as the Ceraunian Mountains dwell the Bylliones, the Taulantii, the Parthini, and the Brygi.
(...) Then, because one tribe or another was always getting the mastery over others, they all ended in the Macedonian empire, except a few who dwelt above the Ionian Gulf. And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia. But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar, although, they add, some speak both languages."
(~Strabo, Geography, Book VII, Chapter 7)
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#10

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:05 pm

Le t'i hedhim nje sy propagandes greke e cila mundohet ta dredhoje dhe ta c'kuptimesoje paragrafine e Polibit ne lidhje mbi "dallueshmerine" e gjuhes ilire dhe asaj Maqedonase.

1. Rrena Greke Nr.1: "'Polybius denied that Macedonians were Illyrian. Macedonians need translator to communicated with Illyrians (Polybius, XXVIII, 8,9 )"

Le t'i hedhim nje sy tekstit origjinal:
Perseus, on arriving at Syberra, sold the booty, and rested his army waiting for the return of the envoys. 9 Upon their arrival, after hearing the answer of Genthius, he once more dispatched Adaeus, accompanied by Glaucias, one of his bodyguard, and again by Pleuratus owing to his knowledge of the Illyrian dialect, with the same instructions as before, just as if Genthius had not expressly indicated what he was in need of, and what must be done before he would consent to the request.
Qysh po e shohim ketu, Polibi nuk ka qene duke folur per ndryshueshmerine gjuhesore te Ilireve dhe Maqedonasve ne anen tjeter, por flet vetem per ndryshueshmeri dialektore. Keshtu, qe rrenat e grekeve per te keqinterpretuar domethenien tekstuale te Polibit nuk pine me uje. Tekefundit, ata mund t'i bejne vetes qejf duke shpikur nje 'perkthyes', ama faktet jane shume kokeforta dhe nuk ndryshohen vetem per hater te Athines. Eh, sa 'Athina' tjera kane provuar t'i ndryshojne faktet, dhe prape kane humbur....
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#11

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:28 pm

“The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words – not loan words from Greek – do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect. And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form. In this respect Macedonian seems closer to Illyrian and Thracian than to the Greek dialects”.
(~In the shadow of Olympus: the emergence of Macedon~ Eugene N.Borza, 1992, page 93)


Sa i perket maqedonishtes te lashte eshte e rendesishme per tu vene doemos ne pah se megjithe disa linguisteve (si Hammond'i ose Sakellario) qe e mbrojne me ngulm hipotezen se maqedonishtja ka qene variant i greqishtes apo ndonje dialekti te saj, teoria e ngjashmerise me ilirishten ndonese eshte eklipsuar disi, prapeseprape shkenca nuk e ka perjashtuar ate.
T'i hedhim nje sy kronologjise te mbeshtetesve te ilircitetit te maqedonishtes se lashte:
~part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).
~an "Illyrian" dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. Müller (1825) and by G. Bonfante (1987).
Pra, askush deri me tani nuk ka dalur te pohoje se maqedonishtja dhe ilirishtja nuk kane pasur afri njera me tjetren. Askush nuk mund ta mohoje se Ilirishtja eshte folur ne shumicen e Maqedonise se Lashte, sidomos ne zemer te Maqedonise ne ate qe shkrimtaret latin e quanin 'Maqedonia e Siperme' ose 'Maqedonia e Lire'.
Gjithashtu eshte fakt se nje numer antroponimesh jane pranuar boterisht te jene te gurres iliro-thrake:
Identifiable non-Greek (Thracian, Illyrian and "native" -- that is names generally confined to Macedonian territory that aren't identified with any language, Greek or not) names
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#12

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:42 pm

Perberja etnike e fiseve Maqedonase -
A nuk dalin shumica e fiseve maqedonase te burimit ilir? Pjesa tjeter te burimit thrak? Cili nga keto fise mund te identifikohet si fis grek?
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#13

Post by ALBPelasgian » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:46 pm



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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#14

Post by ALBPelasgian » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:59 pm

Antropologia e 'mallkuar' greke Anastasia Karkasidou ne librin e saj 'Fushat e Grurit, Kodrat e Gjakut' permend te verteta mbi kolonizimin e Maqedonise nga kolone ardhacake prej Azise se Vogel. Nderkaq, sa i perket 'heretikut ekzorcist' qe guxoi te beje 'sakrilegj' nuk dihet nese inkuizicioni grek ka marre masat...
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ALBPelasgian
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Re: MAQEDONIA E LASHTE - ORIGJINA JONE E MOHUAR

#15

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:03 am

Propaganda e etnonacionalizmit grek me primesa naziste mundohet qe Maqedonine e lashte ta paraqese si "Greke". Per me teper deshmon:
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Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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