"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

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Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#1

Post by Zeus10 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:04 pm

Nje pyetje qe vazhdimisht ka bere kurioz publikun shqiptar, ka qene origjina e emrit arber. Ne fragmente te literatures se lashte, permendet nje dege e fisit te madh ilir te taulanteve me emrin abr-oi:

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Meqe termi eshte permendur prej ""grekeve"", dhe mendohet qe gjuha e mesiperme eshte e tyre, le te hapim pak fjalorin me popullor "A lexicon abridged from Liddell and Scott's Greek-English lexicon" per kete gjuhe te vjeter dhe te shohim kuptimin:

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pra emri do te thote ne ate gjuhe, i bukur i shtrenjte, delikat etj
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#2

Post by Zeus10 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:11 pm

Ky eshte fisi qe banonte qytetin Arbon prane Durresit, qe permendet nga Polibi kur pershkruan terheqjen e ilireve gjate luftes Iliro-Romake:
11] συμμιξάντων δὲ πρεσβευτῶν αὐτοῖς καὶ πλειόνων, ὧν οἱ παρὰ τῶν Παρθίνων ἧκον ἐπιτρέποντες τὰ καθ' αὑτούς, δεξάμενοι τούτους εἰς τὴν φιλίαν, παραπλησίως δὲ καὶ τοὺς παρὰ τῶν Ἀτιντάνων προσεληλυθότας προῆγον ὡς ἐπὶ τὴν Ἴσσαν διὰ τὸ καὶ ταύτην ὑπὸ τῶν Ἰλλυριῶν πολιορκεῖσθαι τὴν πόλιν. [12] ἀφικόμενοι δὲ καὶ λύσαντες τὴν πολιορκίαν προσεδέξαντο καὶ τοὺς Ἰσσαίους εἰς τὴν ἑαυτῶν πίστιν. [13] εἷλον δὲ καὶ πόλεις τινὰς Ἰλλυρίδας ἐν τῷ παράπλῳ κατὰ κράτος: ἐν αἷς περὶ Νουτρίαν οὐ μόνον τῶν στρατιωτῶν ἀπέβαλον πολλούς, ἀλλὰ καὶ τῶν χιλιάρχων τινὰς καὶ τὸν ταμίαν. [14] ἐκυρίευσαν δὲ καὶ λέμβων εἴκοσι τῶν ἀποκομιζόντων τὴν ἐκ τῆς χώρας ὠφέλειαν. [15] τῶν δὲ πολιορκούντων τὴν Ἴσσαν οἱ μὲν ἐν τῇ Φάρῳ διὰ τὸν Δημήτριον ἀβλαβεῖς ἔμειναν, οἱ δ' ἄλλοι πάντες ἔφυγον εἰς τὸν[u][b] Ἄρβωνα [/b][/u]σκεδασθέντες. [16] ἡ δὲ Τεύτα πάνυ μετ' ὀλίγων εἰς τὸν Ῥίζονα διεσώθη, πολισμάτιον εὖ πρὸς ὀχυρότητα κατεσκευασμένον, ἀνακεχωρηκὸς μὲν ἀπὸ τῆς θαλάττης, ἐπ' αὐτῷ δὲ κείμενον τῷ Ῥίζονι ποταμῷ. [17] ταῦτα δὲ πράξαντες καὶ τῷ Δημητρίῳ τοὺς πλείστους ὑποτάξαντες τῶν Ἰλλυριῶν καὶ μεγάλην αὐτῷ περιθέντες δυναστείαν ἀνεχώρησαν εἰς τὴν Ἐπίδαμνον ἅμα τῷ στόλῳ καὶ τῇ πεζικῇ δυνάμει. .Of the Illyrian troops engaged in blockading Issa, those that belonged to Pharos were left unharmed, as a favour to Demetrius; while all the rest scattered and fled to [u][b]Arbo[/b][/u]. Teuta herself, with a very few attendants, escaped to Rhizon, a small town very strongly fortified, and situated on the river of the same name. Having accomplished all this, and having placed the greater part of Illyria under Demetrius, and invested him with a wide dominion, the Consuls retired to Epidamnus with their fleet and army
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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#3

Post by Zeus10 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:53 pm

Ne librin e Alexiad te Anna Komnenes gjejme shprehjen e meposhtme

"τώ εξ' Αρβανών ορμωμένω Κομισκόρτη"

tek Komiskortet qe erdhen prej Arbanes(perkthyer Albanise)

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#4

Post by Zeus10 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:58 pm

Pra 14 shekuj me vone ne te njejtat vende kemi nje perputhje te plote:

Ἄρβωνα=Αρβανα sepse Αρβανών eshte gjinorja(kallezorja??) e Arbania(Albania).

Mos te harrojme, se emri Arbën ishte emri yne ne Mesjete, qe prej latineve therritej Alban-enses dhe vendi yne Albania Αλβανών.

libri eshte dhe ne latinisht ku Αρβανών eshte barazuar me Albanis( pra qe do te thote: Albaneze, ose prej Shqiperise)

le ta sjellim dhe njehere perkthimin:

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Libri ne origjinal
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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#5

Post by alfeko sukaraku » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:12 pm

me formen qe e sillni ji kete fjale edhe me dokumentet qe shfaqni tregojn pak a shume nje histori te njejt me emrat e kudondodhur te "yllit&alba"..keta emra kudondodhen ne mesdhe.Po keshtu na thote edhe vazhdimi i nje citimi te mesiperm tek fotokopja me shkrim greke qe keni sjelle..na thote se mbaresa "vros" gjendet kudo ne mesdhe "imVROS=umBROS" etje

ne se merret kjo per baze ateher dalim tek fjala pellazge shqipe "amvros-amvrosini"

ne se do merrnim per baze se kjo eshte lidhja e vertet qe tregon prejardhjen e fjales "arvona" ateher fjala duhet te vije nga "avrotos,a vrotos=perendit=te pavdekshmit" me "a" ne formen mohuese edhe fjalen"vrot"os"=vrot-vret-vrar=a + vrotos = i pavdekshem=Perendit.
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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#6

Post by alfeko sukaraku » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:30 pm

ne citimin e gjate flitet per Tomorrin edhe edhe faltoren e Dodones ku ruheshin ligjet e Zotit ne "temenin e yllit"

vazhdimi flet per emrat vendor qe perfundojn me "vros" nga kua autori lidhe emrin "arvano"

ne radhe te pare ne se nje dite zbulohet Dodona e vertet ateher aty do gjenden te shkruajtura edhe ligjet e Zotit ne Temenin e Yllit...edhe mbishkrime te skalitura si me rreze laizer ne kemi ne nje shpate mali te vlores te cilat i kam sjelle ne forum ne temen e "historia e gjuhes shqipe nga lashtesia deri ne hyrje te eres sone"

ne se qendron kjo llogjike interpretimi ateher keshtu shpjegohet se ne dhe gjuha jone jemi autoktonet vetem te ketij dheu..per sa njeh historia.Sepse jo vetem lidhet emri arvon me te pavdekshmit por edhe vete vazhdimsia jone te "skyptro-ai qe mban shkopin e shenjte me koken e shqiponjes si lajmetare e Zotit =shkopin e zotit" ai qe mbane drejtimin=i pari...edhe si rrjedhoj "skyptaret" =ata qe mbajn drejtimin e udhes se zotit...si rrjedhoj edhe Dodona Pellazge..e para.
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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#7

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:07 am

alfeko sukaraku wrote:ne citimin e gjate flitet per Tomorrin edhe edhe faltoren e Dodones ku ruheshin ligjet e Zotit ne "temenin e yllit"
Nuk ka te beje fare me interpretimin "'temenin e yllit"', ajo do te thote te presesh pemën. Ajo flet per Dodonen qe gjendej ne rrezen e malit Tomarus ose Tmar dhe banoret rreth saj merreshin me blegtori ose ishin druvare(ύλοκουρος) qe prisnin peme.
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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#8

Post by alfeko sukaraku » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:23 pm

Zeus10 wrote:
alfeko sukaraku wrote:ne citimin e gjate flitet per Tomorrin edhe edhe faltoren e Dodones ku ruheshin ligjet e Zotit ne "temenin e yllit"
Nuk ka te beje fare me interpretimin "'temenin e yllit"', ajo do te thote te presesh pemën. Ajo flet per Dodonen qe gjendej ne rrezen e malit Tomarus ose Tmar dhe banoret rreth saj merreshin me blegtori ose ishin druvare(ύλοκουρος) qe prisnin peme.
ylokuros =pylli..kjo eshte me se e qarte nga Hesychi....por kuptimi nuk eshte kaq i thjeshte .ka gjeresi te madhe edhe nje fakte te pakundershtueshem per mosgjendjen e Dodones se vertet..sepse ne Dodonen e vertet gjenden" shkrimet e Zotit"...me larte fola per shkrimet qe duken sikur jane shkruajtur me rreze lazer ne nje male te vlores..jo pa qellim.

me shqip perkthimi do ishte ky:

"Tomuros i quajturi Tomaron i malit te Dodones ose Tmaros edhe ku banojn(ndodhen) ligjet e shenuara, keto ligje i ruajne druvaret ..."tin ilin temnon=qe mbledhin drute-prisnin drute..gje qe une e lexova si "temini yllit" gabimisht.???"


rendesia me e madhe e kesaj te dhene eshte sigurisht ekzistenca e ligjeve te shenuara te cilat ruheshin nga druvaret.
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A eshte emri Epiri i njejte me ate Arbri?

#9

Post by Zeus10 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:41 pm

A eshte emri Arbri, ajo qe latinet i thoshin Epiri dhe neolatinet Albani?
Le ta shohim, kemi dy emra: 'Epiri dhe Arberi'. Te krijohet pershtypja sikur kemi te bejme me dy fjale te ndryshme. Ne fakt, afersia mes ketyre dy fjaleve eshte me e madhe sec duket me nje veshtrim te pare.
P-ja dhe b-ja jane ne fakt dy bashketingellore qe ndryshojne vetem nga forca e zerit:

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Shqiptaret therriten epirote dhe ata e kane quajtur vendin e tyre:

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por ne e dime shume mire qe te pakten ne shkrimet me te vjetra shqip, shqiptaret kane perdorur p-ë ne vend te b-ë, per te shkruar:

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ose kur kane perdorur germat "greke"":

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vazhdon
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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#10

Post by Zeus10 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:48 pm

Nga ana tjeter kemi zanoret e nderkembyeshme ne dialektet shqiptare a~ë~e dhe e~i, qe ne fakt jane te tilla dhe ne gjuhe te huaja per shkak te fluiditetit te tyre, per te cilat nuk duhet ekspert fonetike apo fonologjie.
Pra nese bejme zevendesimet perkatese te fjales Arberi, do te kishim nje forme te saj te shkruar
Arberi~Erpiri
Forma Erpir nga Epir ndryshon vetem nga prezenca e bashketingellores r-ë pas zanores nistore, qe fare mire mund te jete nje shtese e mevonshme spontane e gjuhes, per lehtesi shqiptimi.
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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#11

Post by Zeus10 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:38 am

Pas ketyre komenteve, le te marrim dhe njehere nje monedhe te vjeter epirote:

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Pra ajo eshte qartesisht απειρωταν ku απειρ eshte emri i vendit.

Pra kemi απειρ-ι kundrejt arber-i. Te gjithe e veme re ngjashmerine, bile kemi dhe studjues qe thone qe epirotet e lashte e therrisnin veten al-ioi:

Lectures on ancient history, from the earliest times to the taking . Volume 3 By Barthold Georg Niebuhr, Marcus von Niebuhr

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Por al eshte variacioni fonetik i ar, qe fare mire mund te jete perfaqsuar vetem nga α ne lashtesi kurse pjesa tjeter πειρ mund te jete forma e shkruar e rrokjes ber(u shpjegua me larte).
Nga gjithe ky shtjellim, eshte pothuajse e sigurte qe fjal απειρ dhe ajo e mevonshme arber, kane shprehur te njejten gje, njera si forme e shkruar tjetra si e folme.
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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#12

Post by erix77 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:45 am

Abri mund te gjendet edhe ne Itali tek Umbri,ndoshta gabohem por mua me duken 2 emra shume te ngjashem.
Dhe e bëmë me besa besën ja të rrojmë ja të vdesëm!

Ishte thënë prej Zotit që të nderohen armët e Shqipërisë!

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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#13

Post by elikranon » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:16 pm

Zeus10 wrote:Ne librin e Alexiad te Anna Komnenes gjejme shprehjen e meposhtme

"τώ εξ' Αρβανών ορμωμένω Κομισκόρτη"

tek Komiskortet qe erdhen prej Arbanes
Ketu perkthehet me mire: "Komiskorti me pikenisje (qe u versul) nga Arbanon".
Kam lexuar nje punim rreth kesaj fraze, mbaj mend vetem mbiemrin e autores, Vrana, po librin e kam ne shtepi dhe mund ta sjell te plote.
Pasi sjell nje sere shembujsh nga materiale te tjera te asaj kohe, konkludon qe termi "komiskortis" eshte titull i hierarkise ushtarake ne perandorine bizantine.

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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#14

Post by Picasso` » Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:43 pm

Zeus, mendimi im eshte qe duhet te kete nje teme ne te cilen do te postohen te gjitha dokumentet e gjetura qe flasin per shqiptaret ne kohen e antikes qe nga Ptolomeu deri te Stefan Bizanti, ku ne menyre gjuhesore dhe historike me mire do te perpunohen dokumentet dhe vete emri Arban, si e kane pare na kohe te vecante dhe si e shofin sot ate emer...

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Re: Fisi ilir i Abr-eve dhe emri Arberi.

#15

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:46 pm

Picasso` wrote:Zeus, mendimi im eshte qe duhet te kete nje teme ne te cilen do te postohen te gjitha dokumentet e gjetura qe flasin per shqiptaret ne kohen e antikes qe nga Ptolomeu deri te Stefan Bizanti, ku ne menyre gjuhesore dhe historike me mire do te perpunohen dokumentet dhe vete emri Arban, si e kane pare na kohe te vecante dhe si e shofin sot ate emer...
Falemnderit Picasso. Megjithese ky ka qene nje nga pikesynimet e mia, nuk kam arritur ta bej kete pune, ashtu sic do deshiroja. Ne fakt eshte fare e pamundur te behet kjo nga nje njeri i vetem, prandaj do te deshiroja qe te kisha bashkepunimin e te gjitheve.
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