"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREKE'

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NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREKE'

#1

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:22 am

Reagimin e meposhtem ne emer te ArberiaONLINE e pata pergatitur muaj me pare si pergjigjje ndaj nje perpjekjeje denigruese te qarqeve megalomane e shoviniste bizantine ne Australi (te ashtuquajturit AMAC -Australian Macedonian Advisory Council) ndaj Enciklopedise 'Maqedonia Shqiptare' e cila per here te pare publikisht shfaq te verteten shqiptare te Maqedonise. Patush-i e pat marre persiper perkthimin mirepo nuk e ka bere deri me tani; e ndoshta edhe per faj timin ky reagim ka mbetur ca ne harrese. Do te ishte mire qe ne si forum te ishim me sycelte ndaj te denigrimeve te tilla duke pergatitur pergjigjje te fuqishme.

I lutem te gjithe atyre qe e njohin anglishten mire, te ndajne ca minuta nga koha e tyre per ta perkthyer tekstin e meposhtem.

I lutem poashtu qe perkthimin mos ta bejne fjale per fjale ose bukval por ta pershtatin rrjedhshem ne anglishte. Dmth, thelbi i 'perkthimit' eshte pershtatja dhe jo perkthimi apo jo?

Pjeset e nenvizuara me te kuqe s'kane nevoje qe perkthehen sepse ato jane ne origjinal ne anglisht!
I ashtuquajturi Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC), i cili me gjasë grumbullon Diasporën Greke në Australi, shquhet për një ultra-nacionalizëm primitiv i cili ushqehet nga ideologjia grekomadhe e lindur qysh nga Megali Idea me 1844. Ky mentalitet megaloman është prezent edhe në mesin e Diasporës Greke në Australi gjegjësusht tek i ashtuquajturi Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC). KY mentalitet enderron ringjalljen e kufinjeve te dikurshem te Perandorise Bizantine duke i vene cilesorin grek, të cilin në të vërtetë ajo asnjëherë nuk e ka pasur. Reagimi i Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC) kundër Enciklopedisë shqiptare 'Albanian Macedonia' është qesharak dhe idiotik në të njejtën kohë: asnjë nga antarët e Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC) nuk e ka lexuar këtë enciklopedi. Se nuk e kanë lexuar fare këtë enciklopedi dëshmon fakti që në asnjë vend të 'reagimit' të tyre nuk e kanë cituar as edhe një paragraf të kësaj enciklopedie. Pra, ky reagim nuk mund të jetë reagim, sepse reagimi bëhet ndaj diçkaje që e njeh, në këtë rast që të bësh reagim duhet që paraprakisht ta lexosh dhe më pas të kundëreagosh respektivisht. Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC) dhe përfaqësuesit e tyre propagandistik në internet vetëm sa e zbuluan cinizmin dhe injorancën e tyre përmes një 'reagimi' që është pak ta quash psikopatik.

Ndër të tjerash, ai që e ka shkruar 'reagimin' e Australian Macedonian Advisory Council
(AMAC) says:

'Mr. Muhamedi said that he was not motivated nor supported by politicians, and that his approach was strictly scientific. How can such an approach be scientific, when historical evidence is well-known and clearly states otherwise?
Në fakt, çdo gjë e shkruar në këtë enciklopedi është e mireferencuar në fakte dhe literaturë bashkohore përendimore.
AMAC says:

The 'myth' stated by Mr. Muhamedi has been systemically produced from known Albanian centres that promote historical revisionism and extreme nationalism in the Balkans.
Për çudi të të gjithëve, AMAC nuk i specifikon se cilat 'Albanian centres' promovojnë 'historical revisionism' dhe 'extreme nationalism'. Duke mos specifkuar asgjë të tillë, AMAC bën vetëm paragjykime dhe shpifje të ulta. Se shqiptarët kanë një trashëgimi më të pasur, të gjallë dhe faktike nga Maqedonasit e lashtë është e ditur kaherë. Këtu s'ka kurrfarë miti: përkundrazi përpjekjet histerike të qarqeve të tilla si AMAC për greqizimin e së kaluarës së Maqedonisë së Vjetër nuk janë asgjë tjetër përpos krijim i një miti të shpikur në vitin 1913 nga Greqia në mënyrë që ta përligjë pushtimin ushtarak të Maqedonisë dhe Epirit. Prej, asaj kohe Greqia ka lansuar fushata të tjera propagandistike për të bindur të tjerët, se ajo e ka të drejtën e legjitimitetit historik mbi Maqedoninë. Në fakt, ky legjitimitet historik nuk i ka takuar asaj asnjëherë as në lashtësi as në mesjetë. Vetëm gjatë viteve 1794-1841, mbi 14 intelektualë e historianë grekë kanë deklaruar se Maqedonia është jo-greke dhe nuk është pjesë e botës së lashtë greke (Politis 1993, 40-2; Dimitrakopolous 1996). (1) NATIONALISM, GLOBALIZATION, AND ORTHODOXY, Victor Roudometof, page 102.
Pas 1913 e tutje 'for Greek nationalist purposes, Macedonia was ancient Macedon, and ancient Macedon was Greek'. (2)CONFLICT AND CHAOS IN EASTERN EUROPE by DENNIS P.Hupchick, pg.136 Sesa greke ka qenë Maqedonia e vjetër Denis Hupchick jep një shpjegim racional:
'Any objective historical analysis of the Greek argument has a difficult time accepting Alexander as having been ethnically Greek. Not even the Greeks of his time considered him one of themselves.They viewed him and his people as militant barbarians who mimicked Greek culture to compensatefor their lack of native cilivilzed development. It was their military predominance, and not their 'Greekness', that brought the Macedonians suzerainty over a fragmented and weak Greek wolrd in the fourth century B.C. The ethnic Greeks were dragged into Alexander's grand imperialist schemes by force of arms, and they never willingly relinquieshed their conscious distinction between themselves and the Macedonians'.(3) CONFLICT AND CHAOS IN EASTERN EUROPE by DENNIS P.Hupchick, pg.136

Maqedonia dhe Epiri ka qenë rregulisht jo-grek në çdo kënvështrim. 'Greqizimi' i tyre fillon pas 1913, atëherë kur shteti grek me furi e kolonizon me ardhacakë të Azisë së Vogël. Prandaj, ka plotësisht të drejtë Metropolite of Florina, Augustinos Kandiotis kur thotë: 'If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece, Greek Macedonia would not exist today. The refugees created the national homogeneity of our country'. (4) Fields of wheat, hills of blood by Anastasia N. Karakasidou, 1997, page 41.
AMAC says:
Albanians are not universally acknowledged as the descendants of the Illyrians, as their origins are disputed by historians worldwide. This is confirmed from several studies and works such as ´Illyrians´ by John Wilkes; several works from an expert in Albanian history, Miranda Vickers; 'Albanian identities: myth and history' by Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers and Bernd Jürgen Fischer, and collective works from around the world such as the ancient, modern and medieval history from Cambridge and Oxford Universities.
Duke mos pasur as edhe një fakt për t'iu kundërpërgjigjur 'miteve shqiptare' AMAC nis me një retorike boshe sesi shqiptarët nuk janë pasardhës të Ilirëve dhe se historianët nuk ua njihkan një origjinë të tillë! Mirëpo, AMAC nuk citon konkretisht asgjë se ç'thotë John Wilkes(5) kundër origjinës ilire të shqiptarëve. AMAC gjithashtu përmend 'several books' of Miranda Vickers që u shprehkan kundër origjinës ilire të shqiptarëve, mirëpo nga këta 'several books' AMAC nuk citon as edhe një paragraf të vetëm që të na bind për atë që thotë. Si duket, AMAC-istët ose nuk e kanë lexuar veprat e sipërpërmendura ose i keqinterpretojnë për interesat e tyre. Miranda Vickers në veprën e saj 'Between Serbs and Albanians'(6) në asnjë vend nuk thotë decidivisht se shqiptarët nuk janë pasardhës të ilirëve. Ajo në të njejtën kohë mundohet që t'i shpalosë edhe pikëpamjet e historigrafisë serbe, mirëpo ajo personalisht nuk shprehet askund pro këtyre pikëpamjeve serbe.
Ndërkaq, numri më i madh i historianëve reputativ mbështesin origjinën ilire të shqiptarëve siç është Noel Malcolm, Aleksander Stipçeviç, Alan Duselie, etj.
'Considered the original inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula, the Albanians have inhabited the region since before the rise of the ancient Greeks” (7) One Europe, many nations: a historical dictionary of European national groups‎- Page 30
by James Minahan - History – 2000). Është e panevojshme në këtë rast, t'i përmendim me rradhë gjithë ata historianë dhe enciklopedi që mbështesin origjinën ilire të shqiptarëve.
AMAC says:
None of the historians aforementioned describe Alexander as Illyrian, and even more inaccurately - Albanian.
Çështja e enitcitetit të Lekës së Madh është e lidhur pazgjidhshëm me çështjen e etnicitetit të Maqedonasve të lashtë. Përcaktimi i këtij etniciteti kolektiv të maqedonasve e konfirmon edhe atë të Lekës së Madh, si maqedon që ish. Është e vërtetë se Leka i Madh në asnjë burim të lashtë nuk quhet ilir, mirëpo poaq e vërtetë është se Leka i Madh nuk quhet grek. Në fakt, tërë literatura e lashtë klasike është e mbushur me shembuj të panumërt që infikojnë se Maqedonasit ishin të dallueshëm etnikisht prej grekëve, dhe në të njejtën kohë ishin të afërt me Ilirët dhe Thrakasit. Sot, pjesa më e madhe e ekspertëve të huaj që janë marrë me Maqedoninë e Lashtë i konsiderojnë Maqedonasit si jo-grek siç janë Eugene Borza, Peter Green, E.Badian, R.Crossland, R.Wodward, T.Wininrith, etj, etj.
Meqë AMAC i pretendon të ndryshëm Maqedonasit nga Ilirët, është e nevojshme që të njihen me disa fakte që ata qëllimisht i harrojnë. Straboni (Geography, Book VII, 7) thotë se Maqedonasit, Ilirët dhe Epirotët kishin të njejtën gjuhë, të njetat zakone dhe veshje, aq sa disa i quanin Maqedoni viset gjër në Kërkyrë. So, the aboriginal Macedonians were closely identified in speech, dress, and method of wearing their hair with the Illyrian tribes by the ancients. Ndërkaq, në një vend tjetër, banorët e Maqedonisë i quan 'barbarë' duke aluduar në thrakët që zinin pjesën më të madhe dhe ilirët e epirotët në perëndim. Kur flet për shtrirjen gjeografike të Maqedonisë, Straboni thotë:
Macedonia is bounded, first, on the west, by the coastline of the Adrias; secondly, on the east, by the meridian line which is parallel to this coastline and runs through the outlets of the Hebrus River and through the city Cypsela; thirdly, on the north, by the imaginary straight line which runs through the Bertiscus Mountain, the Scardus, the Orbelus, the Rhodope, and the Haemus; for these mountains, beginning at the Adrias, extend on a straight line as far as the Euxine, thus forming towards the south a great peninsula which comprises Thrace together with Macedonia, Epeirus, and Achaea; and fourthly, on the south, by the Egnatian Road, which runs from the city Dyrrhachium towards the east as far as Thessaloniceia. And thus the shape of Macedonia is very nearly that of a parallelogram.( STRABO GEOGRAPHY Book VII, Fragments 10. Dihet se krejt kjo pjesë ka qenë në masën më të madhe e banuar nga fiset ilire, ndërkaq në lindje nga thrakët. Edhe gjeografi Ptolemy rendit Albanians dhe tokën e tyre si pjesë përbërëse të Maqedonisë. (Macedonia - Tenth Map of Europe). Emri i lashtë i Maqedonisë sipas Strabonit ka qenë: What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia....Now a part of this country was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians...' (9) Strabo Book VII, Fragments, 11. Polybius (23.10.4) mentions that Emathia was earliest called Paeonia and Strabo (frg 7.38) that Paeonia was extended to Pieria and Pelagonia. Prandaj, është shumë e sigurt që emri i lashtë i Maqedonisë të zbërthehet përmes gjuhës pasardhëse të Ilirëve, Epirotëve e Paionëve që është gjuha e sotme shqipe. 'The very name of Macedonia, formerly known as 'Emathia,' derives in all probability from the Albanian word E Madhia (the great).(10) The new Larned History for ready reference, reading and research ..., Volume 1‎ - Page 189Josephus Nelson Larned, Augustus Hunt Shearer - History - 1922. 'Skipitar, Epirot, Arnaut, or Albanian of Albania...It was the language of the ancient Illyrians (in the Greek sense of the word); perhaps the language of the bulk of the Macedonians; a language, perhaps, of the whole of ancient Greece ; and a language which was almost certainly spoken far to the north, the east, and the north-east of its present frontiers; hi other words, it is a language which has receded.' (11) Elements of comparative philology
By Robert Gordon Latham, page 606-607, 1862
Karakteri ilir i Maqedonisë është ruajtur edhe në Mesjetë, sepse shumë kronikanë bizantinë i quajnë Shqiptarët si Maqedonas. Edhe Chalcocondylas believed that they were the remnants of the ancient Macedonians.(11) http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts16-18/AH1774.html. Ndërkaq, heroi kombëtar i shqiptarëve Gjergj Kastrioti-Skenderbeu e ka konsideruar vetëveten si pasardhës të Lekës së Madh dhe shqiptarët si vazhdues të Maqedonëve të vjetër: "I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"(12)ÒTHE TURKS AND THE HISTORY OF SKANDERBEGÓ. by Pagnel, part 5. Pra, Shqiptarët 'Until about the fifteenth century they were not called Albanians but Illyrians,or even Macedonians'. (13) Congressional serial set‎ - Page 14
United States. Government Printing Office - Political Science - 1911. P.Bodganus (1685) described himself as 'Macedo' and the Italo-Albanian Nicola Chetta
(1742-1802) described his people as 'Macedoni' (7.24).

Pas shpalimit të disa prej qindra shembujsh, mësojmë se pronari i vetëm historik i Maqedonisë janë Shqiptarët dhe si e tillë trashëgimia e Maqedonisë së vjetër gjendet pikërisht tek shqiptarët. Edhe Grekët edhe sllavët janë uzurpatorë, të saj.
P.S: Nese keni ndonje verejtje eventuale apo doni ta plotesoni reagimin me ndonje pike atehere lirisht bejeni!
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#2

Post by Patush » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:23 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote:

bla bla bla bla Patushi ..... more bla bla bla bla

-waiting- 8-)


The so called "Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC)" which gathers the Greek diaspora in Australia, it's well known for its primitive ultra-nationalism which is fuelled by the ideology of a greater Greece borne out of the Megali-Idea in 1844. This megalomaniac mentality is very much so present amongst the Australian Greek diaspora, especially with in the so called (AMAC). This type of mentality survives on the dream of recreating the borders of the once Byzantine Empire. But unlike the founders of the glories Byzantine Empire which was founded by the Illyrian/Albanian Emperors this neo-Byzantine would be under the control of the “ Greek Orthodox Church“, a control which the old Byzantine never had!
The reaction of the (AMAC) against the Albanian Encyclopaedia (Albanian Macedonia) is ridicules and idiotic at the same time: none of the members of AMAC have read this encyclopaedia and the facts presented in it, most of which come from “Ancient Greek authors” and the others from pro “Hellenic” enthusiasts, travelers, and historians of the last centuries, most if not all are not Albanian. Supporting the claim that none of the members of AMAC have read this encyclopaedia is the lack of quotes in their reaction towards the said encyclopaedia. Not even a paragraph has been quoted by them in their written reaction! These types of none professional actions from an “Advisory Council” are disturbing and very worrying! You can’t refute something that you have not yet made yourself knowledgeable of. The lack of honesty, facts and good will shows that AMAC is nothing but a propagandistic tool of those with despotic ideas on their mind and glory at the expense of others, mainly the peace and freedom loving people of Albania. The representatives of AMAC have done nothing with their internet propagandistic non professional reaction but expose them selves to the world and showed us their true colors, liars and chauvinists but above all they keep reminding us of their evil agenda that will engulf the Balkans, Europe and Eurasia in to a un-necessary blood bath just to fulfil their dream!
Let’s hope they don’t succeed.

Amongst other things the AMAC reaction says:

'Mr. Muhamedi said that he was not motivated nor supported by politicians, and that his approach was strictly scientific. How can such an approach be scientific, when historical evidence is well-known and clearly states otherwise?

But the reaction fails to quote the “scientific approach” from the encyclopaedia and also fails to counter- react their arguments by quoting from the “well-known historical evidence that says otherwise”? In fact everything written in this encyclopaedia is well referenced with facts quotes and non biased literature of our times. Not being able to counter-react them in a well mannered and academic way is not an excuse for an “Advisory Council” to come out with personal opinions and attack scholars for doing their job, only because what they say goes against their “dream”.


AMAC writes:

The 'myth' stated by Mr. Muhamedi has been systemically produced from known Albanian centres that promote historical revisionism and extreme nationalism in the Balkans.

Strangely enough AMAC fails to tell us who are these “Albanian centers promoting historical revisionism and extreme nationalism”?! Failing to bring to light specific but important subjects, AMAC does nothing but show a side of personal prejudice opinion towards those that go against their chauvinist ideas, mainly the Albanians! The Albanian decadence and connection to the ancient “Macedonians” is well known and documented by many historians. So too is the ‘Barbaric”(non Greek) make up of the “Ancient Macedonians” by “Ancient Greek authors” them selves. There fore these hysterical assertions by the AMAC about the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians and the geographical Macedonia is nothing more but an early mythological creation from the “Greek orthodox Church” and the ruling elite of Greece invented around 1913 in order to give them an excuse for the military occupation of Macedonia and that of Epirus/Albania.
Ever since (1913) Greece has lunched propagandistic campaigns in order to brain wash people in to believing that they, the Greeks have the legitimate right to territorial and historical Macedonia and that of Epirus/Albania! The fact of the matter is that this historical “legitimacy” never belonged to “Greece’ either in ancient times, middle ages or in modern times.! Only through out the years of 1794-1841 over 41 intellectuals of “Greek” history have claimed that Macedonia is not “Greek” and not of the ancients “Greek world”.(Politis 1993, 40-2; Dimitrakopolous 1996).
After 1913 “For Greek national prepossess Macedonia was ancient Macedonia and ancient Macedon was Greek”! As to how much “Greek” was ancient Macedonia, Denis Hupchick gives a rational explanation:

'Any objective historical analysis of the Greek argument has a difficult time accepting Alexander as having been ethnically Greek. Not even the Greeks of his time considered him one of themselves. They viewed him and his people as militant barbarians who mimicked Greek culture to compensate for their lack of native civilized development. It was their military predominance, and not their 'Greekness', that brought the Macedonians suzerainty over a fragmented and weak Greek world in the fourth century B.C. The ethnic Greeks were dragged into Alexander's grand imperialist schemes by force of arms, and they never willingly relinquished their conscious distinction between themselves and the Macedonians'.
Other well respected historians have other things to add:

Leavening the Levant
By Joseph K. Greene Religion - 1916 - 353 pages
THE ALBANIANS
Page 25-27
"The Albanians are an Aryan race, first known as Pelasgians, but called Illyrians by the Romans.
With 25,000 Albanian soldiers Alexander the Great conquered Asia. Their country lies along the shore of the Adriatic Sea, with Montenegro on the north, Greece on the south and Macedonia on the east."
The resurrected nations: short histories of the peoples freed by the great ...‎ - Page 69

Isaac Don Levine - Asia History - 1919
"Alexander the Great is thought by some to have been Albanian. Pyrrhus, the
greatest soldier of his time, was an Albanian".

New outlook, Volume 112
By Alfred Emanuel Smith 1916
Page 156
"The Albanians are the oldest inhabitants of the Balkan peninsula—the descendants of the ancient Pelasgians and Illyrians. Under Scanderbeg they saved Europe by beating back the Turk.
Although a small race, they have given to the world several great men, including Pyrrhus, Alexander the Great, Saint Jerome, Constantine the Great, Pope Clement XI, and Crispi."



Macedonia and Epirus have always been “non Greek” in all aspects, the afford to make them Greek starts after 1913 when the Greek state starts colonizing the occupied parts of Macedonia and Epirus with new comers from Asia and starts to deport its original inhabitants to Turkey. This is why the metropolitan of Florina Augustinos Kandiotis ir right when he says “If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece, Greek Macedonia would not exist today. The refugees created the national homogeneity of our country'.




AMAC wrote:
Albanians are not universally acknowledged as the descendants of the Illyrians, as their origins are disputed by historians worldwide. This is confirmed from several studies and works such as ´Illyrians´ by John Wilkes; several works from an expert in Albanian history, Miranda Vickers; 'Albanian identities: myth and history' by Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers and Bernd Jürgen Fischer, and collective works from around the world such as the ancient, modern and medieval history from Cambridge and Oxford Universities.
----------------------------------------------


Due to lack of facts to counter react the “Albanian myths” AMAC endeavours with an empty rhetoric as to how Albanians are not the descendants of Illyrians and that how some historians like John Wilkes, Miranda Vickers, Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers ,Bernd Jürgen Fischer do not acknowledge this Illyrian origin of Albanians. Here again AMAC fails to quote any of these authors to tell us from their own words and arguments that they bring forth as to why they think that Albanians are “not the descendents of Illyrians” or to show us if they do it at all?!
Again the arguments of the authors mentioned above are compiled in to a personal prejudice opinion against Albanians by AMAC.
Further more majority of historians support the Illyrian origin of Albanians like, Noel Malcolm, Aleksander Stipçeviç, Alan Duselie, and many others.


'Considered the original inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula, the Albanians have inhabited the region since before the rise of the ancient Greeks.

AMAC wrote:
None of the historians aforementioned describe Alexander as Illyrian, and even more inaccurately - Albanian.
------------------------------------------

The ethnicity case of Alexander the Great falls on the same parameters of that of the Macedonians in general.
It is true that in the available ancient texts, Alexander the Great is not mentioned as an Illyrian, just like it’s a fact that he isn’t called a Greek either. In fact all of the classical literature is loaded with an abundance of facts which identify the Macedonians ethnically different from ancient “Greeks”, but at the same time they are shown as being kinsmen to Illyrians and Thracians. Today most of the foreign experts which have studied the ancient Macedonia and Macedonians agree that they were of non “Greek” ethnicity, some of whom are Eugene Borza, Peter Green, E.Badian, R.Crossland, R.Wodward, T.Wininrith, etc etc.
Since AMAC believes the Macedonians were different from Illyrians we would like to remind him of a “Greek” historian named Strabo (Geography book III) who says that Macedonians, Illyrians and the Epiriot have the same language, the same traditions and customs, to the point that some called it Macedonia as far as Corfu. So, the aboriginal Macedonians were closely identified in speech, dress, and method of wearing their hair with the Illyrian tribes by the ancients. In another fragment he calls them “barbarians”, when he speaks or the geography or Macedonia he says:
Macedonia is bounded, first, on the west, by the coastline of the Adrias; secondly, on the east, by the meridian line which is parallel to this coastline and runs through the outlets of the Hebrus River and through the city Cypsela; thirdly, on the north, by the imaginary straight line which runs through the Bertiscus Mountain, the Scardus, the Orbelus, the Rhodope, and the Haemus; for these mountains, beginning at the Adrias, extend on a straight line as far as the Euxine, thus forming towards the south a great peninsula which comprises Thrace together with Macedonia, Epirus, and Achaea; and fourthly, on the south, by the Egnatian Road, which runs from the city Dyrrhachium towards the east as far as Thessalonica. And thus the shape of Macedonia is very nearly that of a parallelogram.( STRABO GEOGRAPHY Book VII, Fragments.

It is known that majority of these parts were inhabited by Illyrian tribes. Even the geographer Ptolemy puts the Albanians and their land in the territories of Macedonia. : What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia....Now a part of this country was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians...' (9) Strabo Book VII, Fragments, 11. Polybius (23.10.4) mentions that Emathia was earliest called Paeonia and Strabo (frg 7.38) that Paeonia was extended to Pieria and Pelagonia. 'The very name of Macedonia, formerly known as 'Emathia,' derives in all probability from the Albanian word E Madhia (the great).(10) 'Skipitar, Epirot, Arnaut, or Albanian of Albania...It was the language of the ancient Illyrians (in the Greek sense of the word); perhaps the language of the bulk of the Macedonians; a language, perhaps, of the whole of ancient Greece ; and a language which was almost certainly spoken far to the north, the east, and the north-east of its present frontiers; hi other words, it is a language which has receded.'

The Macadonian character was saved in the Albanain one, even till the middle ages many Byzantine chronicles call Albanians Macedonians. Chalcocondylas believed that they were the remnants of the ancient Macedonians.(11) http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts16-18/AH1774.html.

Where as the national Albanian hero Gjergj Kastrioti considered him self to be a direct decedent of Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus of Epirus and his race the Albanians to be of that noble race of the ancient Macedonians and Epiriots. "I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
So Albanians 'Until about the fifteenth century they were not called Albanians but Illyrians,or even Macedonians'. P.Bodganus (1685) described himself as 'Macedonian' and the Italo-Albanian Nicola Chetta (1742-1802) described his people as 'Macedoni' (7.24).
There fore after the exhaustion of numerous facts it is safe to say that the only and true claimers of Macedonia and its glory are the Albanians, all others are nothing more than orphans of bloody empires trying to create an identity for them-selves by stealing it from others!
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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#3

Post by Mallakastrioti » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:31 pm

Patush wrote:
ALBPelasgian wrote:

bla bla bla bla Patushi ..... more bla bla bla bla

-waiting- 8-)


-lol- e po "kur e ke zanat dil hoxhe ne fshat " derman ore se me shkrive me kete bla bla... :lol:

Kerkoj ndjese ndoshta jashte teme por me pelqen humori i shkodrianit :D
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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#4

Post by Zeus10 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:33 pm

Mallakastrioti wrote:
Patush wrote:
ALBPelasgian wrote:

bla bla bla bla Patushi ..... more bla bla bla bla

-waiting- 8-)


-lol- e po "kur e ke zanat dil hoxhe ne fshat " derman ore se me shkrive me kete bla bla... :lol:

Kerkoj ndjese ndoshta jashte teme por me pelqen humori i shkodrianit :D
Eshte fantastik. -lol- -itsok-
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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#5

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:07 pm

-itsok- Te lumte o Shkodran i shpejte si rrufe. Te falemnderit per perkthimin tejet korrekt te reagimit. Tani edhe do i rendit edhe referencat-fusnotat.
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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#6

Post by Mallakastrioti » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:13 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote:-itsok- Te lumte o Shkodran i shpejte si rrufe. Te falemnderit per perkthimin tejet korrekt te reagimit. Tani edhe do i rendit edhe referencat-fusnotat.

O po nuk duroheni me ju shqipet e Dardanise...ngelem duke punuar per ju ne ai vrare -loveyou-


Une nuk hyje ne kete pune nga ana e perkthimit...po ngaqe jam me i madh ne moshe se ju kam te drejte te flas -lol-
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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#7

Post by Patush » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:20 pm

ALBPelasgian wrote:-itsok- Te lumte o Shkodran i shpejte si rrufe. Te falemnderit per perkthimin tejet korrekt te reagimit. Tani edhe do i rendit edhe referencat-fusnotat.

Ska problem Alb, degjo kam lan rreshtat e fundit te pa perkthyer, po ashtu ne shum vende artikulli i akuzon ato per mos sjellje te citimeve por ne nje kohe qe vete artikulli yne nuk permban citime ne disa vende. Mendoj qe do ishte e mire te mos e publikosh tani per tani dhe te me japesh pak kohe qe ta mbushi me citime nga historiane te ndryeshem. Mjafton ti hedhesh nje sy ketij forumi qe te gjesh citimet.
Ose mund ta mbushes vete po deshe.

Kalofshi mire te gjithe, une po dal pak 8-)
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Heshtja eshte Hjeksi!

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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#8

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:31 pm

The so called "Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC)" which gathers the Greek diaspora in Australia, it's well known for its primitive ultra-nationalism which is fuelled by the ideology of a greater Greece borne out of the Megali-Idea in 1844. This megalomaniac mentality is very much so present amongst the Australian Greek diaspora, especially with in the so called (AMAC). This type of mentality survives on the dream of recreating the borders of the once Byzantine Empire. But unlike the founders of the glories Byzantine Empire which was founded by the Illyrian/Albanian Emperors this neo-Byzantine would be under the control of the “ Greek Orthodox Church“, a control which the old Byzantine never had!

The reaction of the (AMAC) against the Albanian Encyclopaedia (Albanian Macedonia) is ridicules and idiotic at the same time: none of the members of AMAC have read this encyclopaedia and the facts presented in it, most of which come from “Ancient Greek authors” and the others from pro “Hellenic” enthusiasts, travelers, and historians of the last centuries, most if not all are not Albanian. Supporting the claim that none of the members of AMAC have read this encyclopaedia is the lack of quotes in their reaction towards the said encyclopaedia. Not even a paragraph has been quoted by them in their written reaction!

These types of none professional actions from an “Advisory Council” are disturbing and very worrying! You can’t refute something that you have not yet made yourself knowledgeable of. The lack of honesty, facts and good will shows that AMAC is nothing but a propagandistic tool of those with despotic ideas on their mind and glory at the expense of others, mainly the peace and freedom loving people of Albania.

The representatives of AMAC have done nothing with their internet propagandistic non professional reaction but expose them selves to the world and showed us their true colors, liars and chauvinists but above all they keep reminding us of their evil agenda that will engulf the Balkans, Europe and Eurasia in to a un-necessary blood bath just to fulfil their dream! Let’s hope they don’t succeed.

Amongst other things the AMAC reaction says:
'Mr. Muhamedi said that he was not motivated nor supported by politicians, and that his approach was strictly scientific. How can such an approach be scientific, when historical evidence is well-known and clearly states otherwise?
But the reaction fails to quote the “scientific approach” from the encyclopaedia and also fails to counter- react their arguments by quoting from the “well-known historical evidence that says otherwise”? In fact everything written in this encyclopaedia is well referenced with facts quotes and non biased literature of our times. Not being able to counter-react them in a well mannered and academic way is not an excuse for an “Advisory Council” to come out with personal opinions and attack scholars for doing their job, only because what they say goes against their “dream”.

AMAC writes:
The 'myth' stated by Mr. Muhamedi has been systemically produced from known Albanian centres that promote historical revisionism and extreme nationalism in the Balkans.
Strangely enough AMAC fails to tell us who are these “Albanian centers promoting historical revisionism and extreme nationalism”?! Failing to bring to light specific but important subjects, AMAC does nothing but show a side of personal prejudice opinion towards those that go against their chauvinist ideas, mainly the Albanians! The Albanian connection to the ancient “Macedonians” is well known and documented by many historians. So too is the ‘Barbaric”(non Greek) make up of the “Ancient Macedonians” by Ancient Greek authors them selves. There fore these hysterical assertions by the AMAC about the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians and the geographical Macedonia is nothing more but an early mythological creation from the “Greek orthodox Church” and the ruling elite of Greece invented around 1913 in order to give them an excuse for the military occupation of Macedonia and that of Epirus/Albania.

Ever since (1913) Greece has lunched propagandistic campaigns in order to brain wash people in to believing that they, the Greeks have the legitimate right to territorial and historical Macedonia and that of Epirus/Albania! The fact of the matter is that this historical “legitimacy” never belonged to “Greece’ either in ancient times, middle ages or in modern times.! Only through out the years of 1794-1841 over 41 intellectuals of “Greek” history have claimed that Macedonia is not “Greek” and not of the ancients “Greek world”.(Politis 1993, 40-2; Dimitrakopolous 1996) (1).

After 1913 “for Greek national prepossess Macedonia was ancient Macedonia and ancient Macedon was Greek(2) As to how much “Greek” was ancient Macedonia, Denis Hupchick gives a rational explanation:

'Any objective historical analysis of the Greek argument has a difficult time accepting Alexander as having been ethnically Greek. Not even the Greeks of his time considered him one of themselves. They viewed him and his people as militant barbarians who mimicked Greek culture to compensate for their lack of native civilized development. It was their military predominance, and not their 'Greekness', that brought the Macedonians suzerainty over a fragmented and weak Greek world in the fourth century B.C. The ethnic Greeks were dragged into Alexander's grand imperialist schemes by force of arms, and they never willingly relinquished their conscious distinction between themselves and the Macedonians' (3).

Macedonia and Epirus have always been “non Greek” in all aspects, the afford to make them Greek starts after 1913 when the Greek state starts colonizing the occupied parts of Macedonia and Epirus with new comers from Asia and starts to deport its original inhabitants to Turkey. This is why the metropolitan of Florina Augustinos Kandiotis ir right when he says “If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece, Greek Macedonia would not exist today. The refugees created the national homogeneity of our country' (4).

AMAC wrote:
Albanians are not universally acknowledged as the descendants of the Illyrians, as their origins are disputed by historians worldwide. This is confirmed from several studies and works such as ´Illyrians´ by John Wilkes; several works from an expert in Albanian history, Miranda Vickers; 'Albanian identities: myth and history' by Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers and Bernd Jürgen Fischer, and collective works from around the world such as the ancient, modern and medieval history from Cambridge and Oxford Universities.
Due to lack of facts to counter react the “Albanian myths” AMAC endeavours with an empty rhetoric as to how Albanians are not the descendants of Illyrians and that how some historians like John Wilkes, Miranda Vickers, Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers ,Bernd Jürgen Fischer do not acknowledge this Illyrian origin of Albanians. Here again AMAC fails to quote any of these authors to tell us from their own words and arguments that they bring forth as to why they think that Albanians are “not the descendents of Illyrians” or to show us if they do it at all?!
Again the arguments of the authors mentioned above are compiled in to a personal prejudice opinion against Albanians by AMAC.
Further more majority of historians support the Illyrian origin of Albanians like, Noel Malcolm, Aleksander Stipçeviç, Alan Duselie, and many others. 'Considered the original inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula, the Albanians have inhabited the region since before the rise of the ancient Greeks' (5).

AMAC wrote:
None of the historians aforementioned describe Alexander as Illyrian, and even more inaccurately - Albanian.
The ethnicity case of Alexander the Great falls on the same parameters of that of the Macedonians in general.
It is true that in the available ancient texts, Alexander the Great is not mentioned as an Illyrian, just like it’s a fact that he isn’t called a Greek either. In fact all of the classical literature is loaded with an abundance of facts which identify the Macedonians ethnically different from ancient “Greeks”, but at the same time they are shown as being kinsmen to Illyrians and Thracians. Today most of the foreign experts which have studied the ancient Macedonia and Macedonians agree that they were of non “Greek” ethnicity, some of whom are Eugene Borza, Peter Green, E.Badian, R.Crossland, R.Wodward, T.Wininrith, etc etc.
Since AMAC believes the Macedonians were different from Illyrians we would like to remind him of a “Greek” historian named Strabo (Geography book III) who says that Macedonians, Illyrians and the Epiriot have the same language, the same traditions and customs, to the point that some called it Macedonia as far as Corfu. So, the aboriginal Macedonians were closely identified in speech, dress, and method of wearing their hair with the Illyrian tribes by the ancients. In another fragment he calls them “barbarians”, when he speaks or the geography or Macedonia he says:
"Macedonia is bounded, first, on the west, by the coastline of the Adrias; secondly, on the east, by the meridian line which is parallel to this coastline and runs through the outlets of the Hebrus River and through the city Cypsela; thirdly, on the north, by the imaginary straight line which runs through the Bertiscus Mountain, the Scardus, the Orbelus, the Rhodope, and the Haemus; for these mountains, beginning at the Adrias, extend on a straight line as far as the Euxine, thus forming towards the south a great peninsula which comprises Thrace together with Macedonia, Epirus, and Achaea; and fourthly, on the south, by the Egnatian Road, which runs from the city Dyrrhachium towards the east as far as Thessalonica. And thus the shape of Macedonia is very nearly that of a parallelogram".(6)
It is known that majority of these parts were inhabited by Illyrian tribes. Even the geographer Ptolemy puts the Albanians and their land in the territories of Macedonia. "What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia....Now a part of this country was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians...' (7) . Polybius (23.10.4) mentions that Emathia was earliest called Paeonia and Strabo (frg 7.38) that Paeonia was extended to Pieria and Pelagonia. 'The very name of Macedonia, formerly known as 'Emathia,' derives in all probability from the Albanian word E Madhia (the great).(8)
"Skipitar, Epirot, Arnaut, or Albanian of Albania...It was the language of the ancient Illyrians (in the Greek sense of the word); perhaps the language of the bulk of the Macedonians; a language, perhaps, of the whole of ancient Greece ; and a language which was almost certainly spoken far to the north, the east, and the north-east of its present frontiers; hi other words, it is a language which has receded' (9).

The Macadonian character was saved in the Albanain one, even till the middle ages many Byzantine chronicles call Albanians Macedonians. Chalcocondylas believed that they were the remnants of the ancient Macedonians.(10)

Where as the national Albanian hero Gjergj Kastrioti considered him self to be a direct decedent of Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus of Epirus and his race the Albanians to be of that noble race of the ancient Macedonians and Epiriots. "I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?" (11)
So Albanians 'until about the fifteenth century they were not called Albanians but Illyrians,or even Macedonians' (12). P.Bodganus (1685) described himself as 'Macedonian' and the Italo-Albanian Nicola Chetta (1742-1802) described his people as 'Macedoni' (7.24). Pas shpalimit të disa prej qindra shembujsh, mësojmë se pronari i vetëm historik i Maqedonisë janë Shqiptarët dhe si e tillë trashëgimia e Maqedonisë së vjetër gjendet pikërisht tek shqiptarët. Edhe Grekët edhe sllavët janë uzurpatorë, të saj.

(1) NATIONALISM, GLOBALIZATION, AND ORTHODOXY, Victor Roudometof, page 102.
(2) CONFLICT AND CHAOS IN EASTERN EUROPE by DENNIS P.Hupchick, pg.136
(3) Ibid pg.136
(4) Fields of wheat, hills of blood by Anastasia N. Karakasidou, 1997, page 41.
(5) One Europe, many nations: a historical dictionary of European national groups, James Minahan, 2000, pg.30
(6) STRABO GEOGRAPHY Book VII, Fragments 10
(7) Strabo Book VII, Fragments, 11
(8) The new Larned History for ready reference, reading and research ..., Volume 1‎ - Josephus Nelson Larned, Augustus Hunt Shearer,1922, pg. 189
(9) Elements of comparative philology, Robert Gordon Latham, 1862, pg. 606-607
(10) http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts16-18/AH1774.html.
(11) ÒTHE TURKS AND THE HISTORY OF SKANDERBEGÓ. by Pagnel, part 5
(12) Congressional serial set‎, United States. Government Printing Office,1911, pg.14
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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#9

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:37 pm

Mallakastrioti wrote:
O po nuk duroheni me ju shqipet e Dardanise...ngelem duke punuar per ju ne ai vrare -loveyou-

Une nuk hyje ne kete pune nga ana e perkthimit...po ngaqe jam me i madh ne moshe se ju kam te drejte te flas -lol-
Nuk gjej kenaqesi askund tjeter si ketu, Mallakaster. Fakti qe kjo sofer shqiptare bashkon ne nje vend vellezerit prej Shkodre, Shkupi, Mallakastre e gjithandej jugut, me ben qe te fluturoj krejt e te mos pyes per pengesa. -itsok-
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#10

Post by ALBPelasgian » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:40 pm

Patush wrote:
Ska problem Alb, degjo kam lan rreshtat e fundit te pa perkthyer, po ashtu ne shum vende artikulli i akuzon ato per mos sjellje te citimeve por ne nje kohe qe vete artikulli yne nuk permban citime ne disa vende. Mendoj qe do ishte e mire te mos e publikosh tani per tani dhe te me japesh pak kohe qe ta mbushi me citime nga historiane te ndryeshem. Mjafton ti hedhesh nje sy ketij forumi qe te gjesh citimet.
Ose mund ta mbushes vete po deshe.

Kalofshi mire te gjithe, une po dal pak 8-)
Ne rregull Patush. Une s'do ngutem ta publikoj kete. Kur te kesh kohe te lire, plotesoje me citate te duhura aty ku e sheh te nevojshme dhe te arsyeshme. Pikerisht ky eshte thelbi i punimeve te perbashketa qe mbajne vulen e ArberiaOnline - bashkepunimi i te gjitheve. Une tekstin e perkthyer e rregullova nje cike duke renditur fusnotat. Kur t'i vesh citatet e reja mos harro vetem numrin e fusnotes sheno ne fund.
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Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#11

Post by ALBPelasgian » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:39 am

Ja edhe njehere teksti pas plotesimeve me disa citate nga Patush:


The so called "Australian Macedonian Advisory Council (AMAC)" which gathers the Greek diaspora in Australia, it's well known for its primitive ultra-nationalism which is fuelled by the ideology of a greater Greece borne out of the Megali-Idea in 1844. This megalomaniac mentality is very much so present amongst the Australian Greek diaspora, especially with in the so called (AMAC). This type of mentality survives on the dream of recreating the borders of the once Byzantine Empire. But unlike the founders of the glories Byzantine Empire which was founded by the Illyrian/Albanian Emperors this neo-Byzantine would be under the control of the "Greek" Orthodox Church, a control which the old Byzantine never had!

The reaction of the (AMAC) against the Albanian Encyclopaedia (Albanian Macedonia) is ridicules and idiotic at the same time: none of the members of AMAC have read this encyclopaedia and the facts presented in it, most of which come from Ancient Greek authors and the others from pro “Hellenic” enthusiasts, travelers, and historians of the last centuries, most if not all are not Albanian. Supporting the claim that none of the members of AMAC have read this encyclopaedia is the lack of quotes in their reaction towards the said encyclopaedia. Not even a paragraph has been quoted by them in their written reaction!

These types of none professional actions from an “Advisory Council” are disturbing and very worrying! You can’t refute something that you have not yet made yourself knowledgeable of. The lack of honesty, facts and good will shows that AMAC is nothing but a propagandistic tool of those with despotic ideas on their mind and glory at the expense of others, mainly the peace and freedom loving people of Albania.

The representatives of AMAC have done nothing with their internet propagandistic non professional reaction but expose them selves to the world and showed us their true colors, liars and chauvinists but above all they keep reminding us of their evil agenda that will engulf the Balkans, Europe and Eurasia in to a un-necessary blood bath just to fulfil their dream! Let’s hope they don’t succeed.

Amongst other things the AMAC reaction says:
'Mr. Muhamedi said that he was not motivated nor supported by politicians, and that his approach was strictly scientific. How can such an approach be scientific, when historical evidence is well-known and clearly states otherwise?
But the reaction fails to quote the “scientific approach” from the encyclopaedia and also fails to counter- react their arguments by quoting from the “well-known historical evidence that says otherwise”? In fact everything written in this encyclopaedia is well referenced with facts quotes and non biased literature of our times. Not being able to counter-react them in a well mannered and academic way is not an excuse for an “Advisory Council” to come out with personal opinions and attack scholars for doing their job, only because what they say goes against their “dream”.

AMAC writes:
The 'myth' stated by Mr. Muhamedi has been systemically produced from known Albanian centres that promote historical revisionism and extreme nationalism in the Balkans.

Strangely enough AMAC fails to tell us who are these “Albanian centers promoting historical revisionism and extreme nationalism”?! Failing to bring to light specific but important subjects, AMAC does nothing but show a side of personal prejudice opinion towards those that go against their chauvinist ideas, mainly the Albanians! The Albanian connection to the ancient “Macedonians” is well known and documented by many historians. So too is the ‘Barbaric”(non Greek) make up of the “Ancient Macedonians” by Ancient Greek authors them selves. There fore these hysterical assertions by the AMAC about the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians and the geographical Macedonia is nothing more but an early mythological creation from the “Greek orthodox Church” and the ruling elite of Greece invented around 1913 in order to give them an excuse for the military occupation of Macedonia and that of Epirus/Albania.

Ever since (1913) Greece has lunched propagandistic campaigns in order to brain wash people in to believing that they, the Greeks have the legitimate right to territorial and historical Macedonia and that of Epirus/Albania! The fact of the matter is that this historical “legitimacy” never belonged to “Greece’ either in ancient times, middle ages or in modern times.! Only through out the years of 1794-1841 over 41 intellectuals of “Greek” history have claimed that Macedonia is not “Greek” and not of the ancients “Greek world”.(Politis 1993, 40-2; Dimitrakopolous 1996) (1).

After 1913 “for Greek national prepossess Macedonia was ancient Macedonia and ancient Macedon was Greek” (2) As to how much “Greek” was ancient Macedonia, Denis Hupchick gives a rational explanation:

'Any objective historical analysis of the Greek argument has a difficult time accepting Alexander as having been ethnically Greek. Not even the Greeks of his time considered him one of themselves. They viewed him and his people as militant barbarians who mimicked Greek culture to compensate for their lack of native civilized development. It was their military predominance, and not their 'Greekness', that brought the Macedonians suzerainty over a fragmented and weak Greek world in the fourth century B.C. The ethnic Greeks were dragged into Alexander's grand imperialist schemes by force of arms, and they never willingly relinquished their conscious distinction between themselves and the Macedonians' (3). Other well respected historians have other things to add: "The Albanians are an Aryan race, first known as Pelasgians, but called Illyrians by the Romans. With 25,000 Albanian soldiers Alexander the Great conquered Asia. Their country lies along the shore of the Adriatic Sea, with Montenegro on the north, Greece on the south and Macedonia on the east(4). "Alexander the Great is thought by some to have been Albanian. Pyrrhus, the
greatest soldier of his time, was an Albanian
" (5). "The Albanians are the oldest inhabitants of the Balkan peninsula—the descendants of the ancient Pelasgians and Illyrians. Under Scanderbeg they saved Europe by beating back the Turk. Although a small race, they have given to the world several great men, including Pyrrhus, Alexander the Great, Saint Jerome, Constantine the Great, Pope Clement XI, and Crispi(6).

Macedonia and Epirus have always been “non Greek” in all aspects, the afford to make them Greek starts after 1913 when the Greek state starts colonizing the occupied parts of Macedonia and Epirus with new comers from Asia and starts to deport its original inhabitants to Turkey. This is why the metropolitan of Florina Augustinos Kandiotis ir right when he says “If the hundreds of thousands of refugees had not come to Greece, Greek Macedonia would not exist today. The refugees created the national homogeneity of our country' (7).

AMAC wrote:
Albanians are not universally acknowledged as the descendants of the Illyrians, as their origins are disputed by historians worldwide. This is confirmed from several studies and works such as ´Illyrians´ by John Wilkes; several works from an expert in Albanian history, Miranda Vickers; 'Albanian identities: myth and history' by Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers and Bernd Jürgen Fischer, and collective works from around the world such as the ancient, modern and medieval history from Cambridge and Oxford Universities.
Due to lack of facts to counter react the “Albanian myths” AMAC endeavours with an empty rhetoric as to how Albanians are not the descendants of Illyrians and that how some historians like John Wilkes, Miranda Vickers, Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers ,Bernd Jürgen Fischer do not acknowledge this Illyrian origin of Albanians. Here again AMAC fails to quote any of these authors to tell us from their own words and arguments that they bring forth as to why they think that Albanians are “not the descendents of Illyrians” or to show us if they do it at all?!
Again the arguments of the authors mentioned above are compiled in to a personal prejudice opinion against Albanians by AMAC.
Further more majority of historians support the Illyrian origin of Albanians like, Noel Malcolm, Aleksander Stipçeviç, Alan Duselie, and many others. 'Considered the original inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula, the Albanians have inhabited the region since before the rise of the ancient Greeks' (8).

AMAC wrote:
None of the historians aforementioned describe Alexander as Illyrian, and even more inaccurately - Albanian.
The ethnicity case of Alexander the Great falls on the same parameters of that of the Macedonians in general. It is true that in the available ancient texts, Alexander the Great is not mentioned as an Illyrian, just like it’s a fact that he isn’t called a Greek either. In fact all of the classical literature is loaded with an abundance of facts which identify the Macedonians ethnically different from ancient “Greeks”, but at the same time they are shown as being kinsmen to Illyrians and Thracians. Today most of the foreign experts which have studied the ancient Macedonia and Macedonians agree that they were of non “Greek” ethnicity, some of whom are Eugene Borza, Peter Green, E.Badian, R.Crossland, R.Wodward, T.Wininrith, etc etc.
Since AMAC believes the Macedonians were different from Illyrians we would like to remind him of a “Greek” historian named Strabo (Geography book III) who says that Macedonians, Illyrians and the Epiriot have the same language, the same traditions and customs, to the point that some called it Macedonia as far as Corfu. So, the aboriginal Macedonians were closely identified in speech, dress, and method of wearing their hair with the Illyrian tribes by the ancients. In another fragment he calls them “barbarians”, when he speaks or the geography or Macedonia he says:
"Macedonia is bounded, first, on the west, by the coastline of the Adrias; secondly, on the east, by the meridian line which is parallel to this coastline and runs through the outlets of the Hebrus River and through the city Cypsela; thirdly, on the north, by the imaginary straight line which runs through the Bertiscus Mountain, the Scardus, the Orbelus, the Rhodope, and the Haemus; for these mountains, beginning at the Adrias, extend on a straight line as far as the Euxine, thus forming towards the south a great peninsula which comprises Thrace together with Macedonia, Epirus, and Achaea; and fourthly, on the south, by the Egnatian Road, which runs from the city Dyrrhachium towards the east as far as Thessalonica. And thus the shape of Macedonia is very nearly that of a parallelogram".(9)
It is known that majority of these parts were inhabited by Illyrian tribes. Even the geographer Ptolemy puts the Albanians and their land in the territories of Macedonia. "What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia....Now a part of this country was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians...' (10) . Polybius (23.10.4) mentions that Emathia was earliest called Paeonia and Strabo (frg 7.38) that Paeonia was extended to Pieria and Pelagonia. 'The very name of Macedonia, formerly known as 'Emathia,' derives in all probability from the Albanian word E Madhia (the great).(11)
"Skipitar, Epirot, Arnaut, or Albanian of Albania...It was the language of the ancient Illyrians (in the Greek sense of the word); perhaps the language of the bulk of the Macedonians; a language, perhaps, of the whole of ancient Greece ; and a language which was almost certainly spoken far to the north, the east, and the north-east of its present frontiers; hi other words, it is a language which has receded' (12).

The Macadonian character was saved in the Albanain one, even till the middle ages many Byzantine chronicles call Albanians Macedonians. Chalcocondylas believed that they were the remnants of the ancient Macedonians.(13)

Where as the national Albanian hero Gjergj Kastrioti considered him self to be a direct decedent of Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus of Epirus and his race the Albanians to be of that noble race of the ancient Macedonians and Epiriots. "I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?" (14)
So Albanians 'until about the fifteenth century they were not called Albanians but Illyrians,or even Macedonians' (15). P.Bodganus (1685) described himself as 'Macedonian' and the Italo-Albanian Nicola Chetta (1742-1802) described his people as 'Macedoni' (7.24). Pas shpalimit të disa prej qindra shembujsh, mësojmë se pronari i vetëm historik i Maqedonisë janë Shqiptarët dhe si e tillë trashëgimia e Maqedonisë së vjetër gjendet pikërisht tek shqiptarët. Edhe Grekët edhe sllavët janë uzurpatorë, të saj.

(1) NATIONALISM, GLOBALIZATION, AND ORTHODOXY, Victor Roudometof, page 102.
(2) CONFLICT AND CHAOS IN EASTERN EUROPE by DENNIS P.Hupchick, pg.136
(3) Ibid pg.136
(4) Leavening the Levant, Joseph K. Greene Religion, 1916, p. 25-2
(5) The resurrected nations: short histories of the peoples freed by the great ...‎ , Isaac Don Levine, 1919 , p. 69
(6) New outlook, Volume 112, Alfred Emanuel Smith, 1916, p. 156
(7) Fields of wheat, hills of blood by Anastasia N. Karakasidou, 1997, page 41.
(8) One Europe, many nations: a historical dictionary of European national groups, James Minahan, 2000, pg.30
(9) STRABO GEOGRAPHY Book VII, Fragments 10
(10) Strabo Book VII, Fragments, 11
(11) The new Larned History for ready reference, reading and research ..., Volume 1‎ - Josephus Nelson Larned, Augustus Hunt Shearer,1922, pg. 189
(12) Elements of comparative philology, Robert Gordon Latham, 1862, pg. 606-607
(13) http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts16-18/AH1774.html.
(14) ÒTHE TURKS AND THE HISTORY OF SKANDERBEGÓ. by Pagnel, part 5
(15) Congressional serial set‎, United States. Government Printing Office,1911, pg.14

P.S: Presim verejtjet tuaja qe do e permiresonin cilesine e reagimit!
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#12

Post by Zeus10 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:50 am

Due to lack of facts to counter react the “Albanian myths” AMAC endeavours with an empty rhetoric as to how Albanians are not the descendants of Illyrians and that how some historians like John Wilkes, Miranda Vickers, Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers ,Bernd Jürgen Fischer do not acknowledge this Illyrian origin of Albanians. Here again AMAC fails to quote any of these authors to tell us from their own words and arguments that they bring forth as to why they think that Albanians are “not the descendents of Illyrians” or to show us if they do it at all?!
Again the arguments of the authors mentioned above are compiled in to a personal prejudice opinion against Albanians by AMAC.
Further more majority of historians support the Illyrian origin of Albanians like, Noel Malcolm, Aleksander Stipçeviç, Alan Duselie, and many others. 'Considered the original inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula, the Albanians have inhabited the region since before the rise of the ancient Greeks' (8).
Mendoj se duhet rishikuar ky pasazh, ne fakt gjithe libri i siperpermendur, mundohet me nje egersi "shkencore", t'iu zhveshe shqiptareve paraardhesit e tyre. Libri jo vetem qe nuk ju njeh atyre vjetersine ilire, por qe ne titull mundohet ta perkufizoje identitetin tone, te nxjerre ne drite nga rilindasit dhe intelktualet, si nje mit.
Arsyeja e vetme eshte se kombet perendimore nuk kane identitet nga ana e tyre dhe kur shohin nje histori etnike si e shqiptareve, behen xheloze. Prandaj dhe Shqiperia dhe shqiptaret u lane ne "harrese" deri ne shek. e 20-te prandaj vazhdojne disa autore te huaj, ndoshta dhe te paguar, ti meshojne idese qe shqiptaret jane si gjithe te tjeret. Jo, shqiptaret kane histori etnike, te pakten qe prej 1000 vjetesh, kurse gjithe Perendimi eshte produkt i copezimit te nje historie fetare te perbashket. Kjo ka sjelle dhe ngjashmerite midis gjuheve te tyre. Psh:

Latinishtja---gjuha e Kishes se krishtere te Perendimit
Greqishtja---gjuha e Kishes se krishtere te Lindjes

Spanjishtja, italishtja, portugalishtja, anglishtja,frengjishtja e ndonje tjeter jane vetem devijime lokale te kesaj gjuhe vehikulare(Latinishtes).
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#13

Post by ALBPelasgian » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:42 pm

Zeus10 wrote:
Mendoj se duhet rishikuar ky pasazh, ne fakt gjithe libri i siperpermendur, mundohet me nje egersi "shkencore", t'iu zhveshe shqiptareve paraardhesit e tyre. Libri jo vetem qe nuk ju njeh atyre vjetersine ilire, por qe ne titull mundohet ta perkufizoje identitetin tone, te nxjerre ne drite nga rilindasit dhe intelktualet, si nje mit.
Arsyeja e vetme eshte se kombet perendimore nuk kane identitet nga ana e tyre dhe kur shohin nje histori etnike si e shqiptareve, behen xheloze. Prandaj dhe Shqiperia dhe shqiptaret u lane ne "harrese" deri ne shek. e 20-te prandaj vazhdojne disa autore te huaj, ndoshta dhe te paguar, ti meshojne idese qe shqiptaret jane si gjithe te tjeret. Jo, shqiptaret kane histori etnike, te pakten qe prej 1000 vjetesh, kurse gjithe Perendimi eshte produkt i copezimit te nje historie fetare te perbashket. Kjo ka sjelle dhe ngjashmerite midis gjuheve te tyre. Psh:

Latinishtja---gjuha e Kishes se krishtere te Perendimit
Greqishtja---gjuha e Kishes se krishtere te Lindjes

Spanjishtja, italishtja, portugalishtja, anglishtja,frengjishtja e ndonje tjeter jane vetem devijime lokale te kesaj gjuhe vehikulare(Latinishtes).
Dekonstruktimi i librit te shpifur "Albanian Myths" te Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers e Bernd Jürgen Fischer meriton nje reagim me vete, sepse propaganda sllavo-"greke" shpesh me te ushqehet e me pas e vjell ate duke e shprendare gjithandej kete diarre.

I kam lexuar disa here pjeset ku "dekonstruktohen" "mitet shqiptare" dhe kam verejte se eshte shkruar prej nje lapsi te porositur i cili dekonstruktimin e ben per hir te dekonstruktimit. Ne fakt dekonstruktimi i tyre eshte i huqur qe ne fillim: sepse duhet te kete paraprakisht "mit" qe me pas te dekonstruktohet. Cekani i dekonstruktimit duhet te drejtohet pikerisht kunder miteve megalomane e identitare sllavo-greke, sepse aty qendron thelbi i keqkuptimeve dhe falsifikimeve te medha.

Se dyti, autoret ne fjale mundohet te paraqesin se 'tezat pellazge' te origjines se shqiptareve jane produkt i nacionalisteve dhe intelektualeve shqiptare te shekullit XIX, gje qe nuk eshte e vertete sepse teza pellazge per here te pare ne menyre shkencore per kohen u parashtrua nga ajka intelektuale elitare europiane, qe me vone gjate gjysmes se dyte te shekullit XIX mbizoteroi ne menyre aboslute. Autoret ne fjale nuk jane te afte te dine ose thjesht s'duan ta dine, se konfirmimi i origjines pellazgo-ilire te shqiptareve eshte bere qysh nga kronikat e para historigrafike bizantine te cilat shqiptareve u mveshnin origjine ilire/maqedone dhe epirote ne menyre te nderkembyeshme. Me pas kemi edhe epoken e Motit te Madh, ku shqiptaret ne menyre te denje ri-konfirmuan te qenurit e tyre si pasardhes te epiroteve dhe maqedoneve te vjeter. Deklamimi i Skenderbeut si pasardhes i Lekes dhe Pirros dhe shqiptareve si pasardhes te maqedoneve e epiroteve lavdishume, nuk ishte nje injektim ideologjik i kohes sic perpiqen disa te na bindin. Referencimi identitar i se kaluares sone epirote e maqedone ishte vec zyrtarizim i trashegimise se gjalle epirote e maqedone ne shqiptaret e kohes, si vazhdues vijedrejte e gjenetik te atyre qe ne lashtesi ben histori.

Pajtohem me ju Zeus, kur thoni se perpjekjet e tyre motivohen prej njefare xhelozie te nenvetedijshme, per ta barazuar kombin shqiptar me kombet e tjera, qe ne shpesh raste jane produkte politike dhe jo organike.
P.sh botimet ne Kosove jane gelojne prej librave qe sponzorizuar nga "miqte" tane qe kombin e shohin si produkt elitar te shekullit XIX, e me kete rast perpiqen qe ta zhgradojne kombin shqiptar duke e paraqitur si artificial dhe te sendertuar prej ideologjise, sistemit edukativ apo perkrahjes nga jashte. Shqiptaret jane te paret dhe mbase te vetmit ne Europe qe kane manifestuar te paret nje identitet te qarte etnik. Kur them identitet te qarte etnik nuk e marr ne kuptimin qysh sot e konceptojme, por megjithate shqiptaret e asokohe shfaqen elementet thelbesore etnike:

1) E kaluara e perbashket
2) Traditat e perbashketa
3) Gjuha si element diferencues prej te tjereve dhe njekohesisht edhe kapercyes i sub-identiteteve: fetare, krahinore, etj.

Madje kete logjike idioteske e kane perqafuar edhe ata qe ne shpeshhere i pandehim si misherim te "nacionalizmit shqiptar" ne Kosove, te cilet tani paturpesisht po garojne ne nje sistem qe dikur e kane demaskuar. Ja disa xhevahire te tyre nga debatet qe i kam pase me ta per ceshtjen ne fjale (kombit dhe nacionalizmit/Skenderbeut):

1) Skenderbeu s'mund te quhet Hero Kombetar i Shqiptareve per shkak se ne momentin e dhene historik s'ka pase shqiptar!!!!!!!
2) Shqiptaret u komb-formuan gjate Lidhjes Shqiptare te Prizrenit.

Gjykojeni edhe vete te nderuar forumiste, shkallen skandaloze te te arsyeturit te "patriotizmit" modern.
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#14

Post by Zeus10 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:44 pm

Une jam i mendimit qe te kemi nje teme te posacme per kete liber, ku te dekonstruktohet dekonstruktimi i mitit, sepse bazohet ne perfundime nga pika te erreta te llogjikes dhe ne paralelizmat pikerisht me vendet qe historine e tyre, e bazojne totalisht ne mitet e te shkuares dhe barazimit me kombet fantazme te te shkuares.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: NDIHME PER PERKTHIMIN E NJE REAGIMI KUNDER QARQEVE 'GREK

#15

Post by ALBPelasgian » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:35 pm

Po pat mundesi dikush le ta perktheje ne Anglisht kete varg te nje kenge shqiptare per Leken. E kam marre prej nje libri ne gjermanisht.

"Alexander der Große, ein Albaner seiner Abstammung nach, starb sehr jung"

"Leka i Madh, Shqiptar me fis, diq fort i ri"

Po mundohem ca ta kthej ne anglishte, nese mundem:

"Alexader the Great, an Albanian by born, die in a very young age'

Eshte korrekt apo duhet formuluar ndryshe perkthimi?
Ne sot po hedhim faren me emrin Bashkim,
Qe neser te korrim frutin me emrin Bashkim!

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