"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

Këtu mund të flisni mbi historinë tonë duke sjellë fakte historike për ndriçimin e asaj pjese të historisë mbi të cilen ka rënë harresa e kohës dhe e njerëzve.

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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#316

Post by Arbëri » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:01 pm

Shkëmbime të popullsisë mes Turqis dhe Greqis ne vitin 1923 !
Kjo marrëveshje mes ketyre dy shteteve çoi në dëbimin/shkaterrim masiv vendasit shqiptarë .

Refugjatë nga Azia e Vogël (ne pritje per vendosjen e tyre ne toke shqiptare , poshte ne foto ), të gjithë flisnin turqisht , as stërgjyshërit e tyre kurrë nuk kishin vënë këmbë në tokën qe sot quhet greke.
Retimo was in greater need of help. The refugees in this town exceeded the normal population in number. In addition to the "Greek" refugees from Asia Minor, all of whom spoke Turkish and whose forefathers had never set foot on Greek soil. Housing was out of the question. It was a case of shelter from the wind and rain. All the old mosques, churches, school buildings and rookeries of every description were utilized. The "Turkish" population helped the Greek-speaking "Turks" from the interior of Crete; the Christian population helped the Turkish-speaking "Greeks" from Anatolia.
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Migrantët Karamanli në pritje për t'u deportuar në Greqi në qytetin e Nigde;
Karamanli migrants waiting to be deported to the Greece in the city of Nigde;
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Libra të ndryshme të shtypura nga fisi Karamanlis në gjuhën turke me shkrimin "grek" 1871-1914;
Various books printed by Karamanlis in Turkish language with Greek script from 1871 to 1914;
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“Nëse doni të zbuloni historinë para Krishtit dhe
shkencat e asaj kohe, duhet të studioni gjuhën shqipe !"
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz - albanolog, matematicient, filozof gjerman

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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#317

Post by Mallakastrioti » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:14 pm

Ne kohen e Homerit kur "Helenet" nuk ekzistonin!

"Homer, as Thucydides remarks, has not made use of the term "barbarians", because the name "Hellenes" did not yet exist as a national and distinctive title. "The Pelasgi were called by Athenians (that is after their mixture) Πελασγοί (Pelasgians), storks, on account of their frequent removals from place to place."- Strabo, IX.p.273.
"The natives of Egypt gave the appellation of BARBAR to the rude and uncivilized tribes in their vicinity."-Herod. II. 158. The word "barbarian" was at first employed only to designate an un-Grecian harshness of language."-Strabo, 14.662"

---
"Homeri, sikurse veren Tuqiditi, nuk ka bere perdorim te termit "barbar", sepse emri "Greket" (Helenet) nuk ekzistonte ende si nje emer etnik dhe dallues ."Pellazget quheshin prej Athinasve (ku ndodh mbas perzierjeve te tyre) Πελασγοί, qe do te thote lejleket, per shkak te levizjeve te tyre te vazhdueshme prej nje vendi ne tjetrin."-Straboni, IX.f.273.
"Egjiptianet vendas dhane emertimin BARBAR fiseve te ashper dhe te pa qyteteruar ne afersi te tyre."-Herodoti. II.158. Fjala "barbar" per here te pare u perdor vetem te pershkruante nje gjuhe te ashper jo-Greke."-Straboni,14.662
----
Vepra:"The history and geography of Greece", f.101, Londer 1838
Autor: Thomas Swinburne Carr

( Nuk di personalisht me çfare merreshin keta "lejlek" qe shtegetonin, por kryesisht jane popullsite baritore ato qe shtegetojne (bagetine) dhe ne mos gaboj fjala bari (bar-bar?) eshte nje fjale qe shqipja e mbart me se miri ende sot. Ndoshta duhet te hidhet drite edhe per termin tjeter "LELEG", pra cilet ishin keta njerez apo popuj qe permenden ne lashtesi. (?)
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#318

Post by Mallakastrioti » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:50 pm

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Politizimi i lojrave Olimpike te lashtesise ne kohet moderne.

Shume here, per qellime politike u perdoren (si dhe perdoren) edhe autoret antike si dhe shkrimet e tyre.
Ndeshim shpesh thenien qe; "ne lojrat Olimpike ne Greqine e lashte merrnin pjese vetem greket", pra duhej te ishe etnikisht grek dhe jo "barbar". Ne garat e lojrave Olimpike , qe te merrje pjese dhe "duhej te ishe grek", per here te pare si tekst na i sjell Herodoti , por Herodoti ngelet gjithesesi kontadiktor pasi, ne se ne nje pasazh nuk ve ne kontrast te dukshem Greket dhe jo-Greket (i.e xenoi) (Hdt.2,160.1) te cilet merrnin pjese ne keto lojra, ne nje pasazh tjeter eshte me i qarte duke shkruar qe "barbaret" nuk merrnin pjese ne Eleia (jug i Peloponezit) kur zhvillohej festivali Olimpik, pasi duhej te ishe grek qe te merrje pjese (Hdt.5.22.2).
Nje atlet i cili merrte pjese ne keto lojra jo vetem duhej te ishte Grek (Herodoti, Hist.,), por edhe nje qytetar i nje qytet-shteti te njohur Grek, pra te bente pjese ne nje komunitet i cili kishte pranuar dhe respektonte armepushimin e shenjte te shpallur prej "theoroi" (ambasadoreve) Eleian.(Hansen, Mogens Herman; Nielsen, Thomas Heine (2004). An Inventory of Archaic and Classical Poleis...ff 108-109).
Por.Tuqiditi na sjell nje rast tjeter lidhur te njejtes ngjarje ne vitin 420 para Kr. kur Eleianet perjashtuan Sparten prej pjesemarrjes ne lojrat Olimpike pasi Spartanet kishin shkelur armepushimin e shenjte duke derguar hoplitet (ushtar i armatosur me hushte dhe mburoje, shenimi im) ne nje territor qe Elis e konsideronte te vetin. (Tuq. 5.49.1). Spartes iu vu nje gjobe sipas ligjeve Olimpike, gjobe e cila u kundershtua prej Spartes dhe per kete arsye Spartanet u perjashtuan prej Lojrave.(Tuq. 5.50.2).Aristokrati Spartan Likas, djali i Arkesilaos, arrin te hyje ne garat me kuaj, por jo si Spartan, por si Teban.
Pra, si perfundim, ne keto lojra mund te merrnin pjese edhe jo-greket, mjaftonte qe te respektoheshin ligjet e "theoroi-ve" Eleian si dhe armepushimi apo deshirat e autoriteteve.
Mos te harrojme gjithashtu qe, Aleksandri i Madh fillimisht u kundershtua te merrte pjese ne kete festival Olimpik, pasi konsiderohej "barbar", pra jo-Grek, por vetem kur Aleksandri i Madh perdori kercenimin kundrejt ambasadoreve, atehere ai arriti te merrte pjese ne keto Lojra.
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#319

Post by Zeus10 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:55 pm

...mjaftonte qe te respektoheshin ligjet e "theoroi-ve".......
Vetem kaq do te mjaftonte, per te kuptuar cili ishte standarti, qe vendoste per "etnicitetin" ne lashtesi. Nje grup theokratesh, qe sundonin me ligjet e fese te tyre, ishin themeluesit e helenizmit dhe aspak patriarket gjinore te tyre.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#320

Post by Mallakastrioti » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:06 pm

" For eastern Christians since the time of the Gospels, the word Ellin
[Hellene] had meant a non-Christian, that is, a pagan (*).

Nevertheless, some writers during the late Byzantine period and afterwards used the term ‘Hellenes’ to refer to Orthodox Christians. Some of these were
even senior churchmen, but they were using the term in an antiquarian
way, in texts written in Ancient Greek, as the counterpart of ‘Latins’
(Roman Catholics)"
(*) In Mark 7.26 it is used to mean ‘gentile’, i.e. non-Jew
----
"Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766-1976" p.49,
Peter Mackridge
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#321

Post by Mallakastrioti » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:13 pm

Qe te kuptojme etnicitetin "grek"!
-----
"Greek nationalism has been particularly intense because of the real
or perceived rival claims of the Greeks’ neighbours. From the outset,
however, it did not stress the importance of common ancestry: you
could become a Hellene even if you were an Aromanian or an Arvanite,
provided you were a Christian and espoused the Hellenic cause.45 Nor
would it be accurate to claim that the modern Greek nation ‘formed
in the first place around a dominant ethnie, which annexed or attracted
other ethnies or ethnic fragments into the state to which it gave a name
and cultural character’.46 In fact, ethnicity was hardly an issue in early
Greeknationalism,whichiswhyIavoidusingtheterminthisbook.This
is because the Hellenic nation developed out of a religious community,
the Orthodox Christian millet of the Ottoman empire, which gradually
metamorphosed from a pan-Orthodox Balkan and Anatolian community
into a number of distinct national communities: Greeks, Bulgarians,
Romanians, and Albanians. It was precisely because it was originally
a multi-ethnic movement that grew out of the Greek Enlightenment,
which was itself a pan-Balkan enterprise, that early Greek nationalism
did not stress vernacular language and culture; vernacular lexicographers
and ethnographers came at a later stage. Later, state institutions, particularly
education, spread the national idea further and deeper, both within
the confines of the state and beyond its boundaries, until finally, as a
result of the victorious Balkan wars of 1912–13 and the disastrous Asia
Minor campaign of 1919–22, it confined itself to the borders of the now
much enlarged state, which meant incorporating a large number of Slav,
Albanian, and Aromanian speakers."
"Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766-1976" p.p 14-15
Peter Mackridge
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#322

Post by Kastrioti1443 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:03 am

AgrianShigjetari wrote:Avantazhet e klerit bizantin te strofulluar ne gjirin e Sulltanit:

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Agrian, te falendroj ty, Zeusin, Arberi-an, AlboPelasgian, Mallakastriotin per te dhenat e jashtezakonshme qe keni sjellur ketu, per interpretimin e tyre, duke na ndricuar te gjithe ne.

Keni bere padyshim nje pune gjigande ketu, me shume se vete '' akademia e shkencave'' te rep se shqiperise.


Sidoqofte pyehta ime ketu do ishte se ne shkrimin e pare ne kete postim, a nuk thuhet se Sulltaniu i paska njohur '' greket'' si milet apo ''nation''?

mileti ne ate kohe kishte kuptim fetar, pra milet ortodoks apo mysliman. por ai perdor fjalen '' nation'' ketu? Ndoshta keqinterpretim i autorit?

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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#323

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:40 pm

elikranon wrote:Përshëndetje,
nuk te sulmova une, ti e bere bile pa me njohur fare.
Keshtu qe nuk ta ula une nivelin e diskutimit.
Qofsh me shendet.


Nuk e di, kujt i drejtoheni ketu Elikranon?
Ti flet per kulture 3-mije vjecare, por nuk jep asnje argument per vazhdimesine e saj.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#324

Post by Zeus10 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:26 pm

Kastrioti1443 wrote: Sidoqofte pyehta ime ketu do ishte se ne shkrimin e pare ne kete postim, a nuk thuhet se Sulltaniu i paska njohur '' greket'' si milet apo ''nation''?

mileti ne ate kohe kishte kuptim fetar, pra milet ortodoks apo mysliman. por ai perdor fjalen '' nation'' ketu? Ndoshta keqinterpretim i autorit?
Sulltani dhe gjithe te tjeret i kane njohur greket si milet, qe para revolucionit konsideroheshin aq te perhumbur etnikisht dhe moralisht, saqe vete perkrahesit e tyre, ndermjet fuqive te medha te kohes, hezitonin ti ngrinin ata deri ne rangun e nje kombi.

The preceding observations are meant to justify the writer's opinion, that whatever the Greeks may have been formerly, and however lamentable the causes of their actual degeneracy, they are at present totally unfit for being raised into an independent nation, and would infallibly constitute themselves a Russian colony, the instant that the success of their struggles would compel the Porte to acknowledge them free from Ottoman authority.

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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#325

Post by Mallakastrioti » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:32 pm

Ne Malin Athos dhe sidomos ne Bibliotekat e ketij manastiri gjenden me te vertete dokumente dhe deshmi, te cilat per çdo studiues do ishin me te vertete miniera ari.
I vetmi studiues qe ka bere nje katalog gati gjithe doreshkrimeve dhe librave me permbajtje te ndryshme ka qene docenti i historise sikurse politikani grek Spiridon Lambro.
Ne te vertet, ne arkivat e Bibliotekes se manastirit te Malit Athos ende sot eshte gati e pa mundur te hyet.
Gjithesesi studiuesi grek S. Lambro ka bere nje katalogim te ketyre doreshkrimeve dhe ne se do verehen me kujdes ekzistojne vepra te cilat na thone disa te verteta qe do kishim veshtiresi te gjenim mbeshtetje ne aspektin burimor letrar te koheve antike (sikurse moderne).
Ne kete rast keto burime vijne prej vet autoreve grek ne tekstet e tyre.Nje nder keto shembuj eshte qe ne kohet antike, sikurse ato moderne, ajo qe njihej si "Ellada", apo "Greqia" ishte thjesht Peloponezi dhe kete deshmi na e sjell nje doreshkrim i cili gjendet ende sot ne arkivat e manastirit te Malit Athos.
Dokumenti ne fjale gjendet ne Kodiket Agjoritik (ΑΓΙΟΡΕΙΤΙΚΟΙ ΚΩΔΙΚΕΣ),mban numrin e inventarit 334a me titullin "Περί έπωνυμίας πόλεων καί τόπων", vepra me titullin "Catalogue of the Greek manuscripts on Mount Athos", 1900, f.16.

"

Έλαδα ή νύν όνομαξομένη Πελοπόνησος

."


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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#326

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:32 pm

Herodotus, i cili eshte vleresuar :"Babai i Historise", por ne opinionin tim eshte: "Babai i kontradiktes", qekurse me te drejte na informon qe ajo qe dikur ishte Pellazgjia, eshte tashme Hellas, por qe me te padrejte, e cileson dhe Thesprotine, dikur pjese e Pellazgjise, si te perfshire ne Hellas, nje shtet imagjinar qe asnjehere nuk egzistoi formalisht.

Herodotus 2.56.1
ἐγὼ δ᾽ ἔχω περὶ αὐτῶν γνώμην τήνδε: εἰ ἀληθέως οἱ Φοίνικες ἐξήγαγον τὰς ἱρὰς γυναῖκας καὶ τὴν μὲν αὐτέων ἐς Λιβύην τὴν δὲ ἐς τὴν Ἐλλάδα ἀπέδοντο, δοκέει ἐμοί ἡ γυνὴ αὕτη τῆς [background=yellow]νῦν Ἑλλάδος, πρότερον δὲ Πελασγίης[/background] καλευμένης τῆς αὐτῆς ταύτης, πρηθῆναι ἐς ΘεσπρωτούςBut my own belief about it is this. If the Phoenicians did in fact carry away the sacred women and sell one in Libya and one in Hellas, then, in my opinion, [background=yellow]the place[/background] where this woman was sold in [background=yellow]what is now Hellas, but was formerly called Pelasgia[/background], [u]was Thesprotia[/u];
Nga ana tjeter Plini Plaku, ne librin e tij:

Naturalis Historia 4.4
[background=yellow]peloponnesus, apia antea appellata et pelasgia[/background], paeninsula haut ulli terrae nobilitate postferenda, inter duo maria aegaeum et ionium[background=yellow]Peloponnesus called formerly Apia and Pelasgia[/background] is a Peninsula worthy to come behind no other land for nobleness lying between two Seas Aegeum and Ionium
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#327

Post by Mallakastrioti » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:47 pm

"Graeci" dhe "Ellines" dy fise dhe popuj te ndryshem mes tyre atehere?
Ne se Ellada ishte Peloponesi, po Atika çfare ishte? Tek e fundit spartanet nuk mund te ishin e njejta rrace apo ETNOS me athiniotet.
Rremuja qendron, mendoj une, ne pergjithesimin e fiseve duke i quajtur here "graeci" e here "ellines", pa u kujdesur nga kishin prejardhjen.
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#328

Post by Zeus10 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:07 pm

Athenjotet, sipas Herodotit ishin ne krye te heres Pellazge, nen Kranain. Por po ky autor, krijon nje konfuzion te madh, kur thote qe kur pellazget erdhen dhe jetuan ne Athine me greket, u quajten si pasoje me pas greke. Lexo pak sa konfuzion ai sjell:
These customs, then, and others besides, which I shall indicate, were taken by the Greeks from the Egyptians. It was not so with the ithyphallic images of Hermes; the production of these came from the Pelasgians, from whom the Athenians were the first Greeks to take it, and then handed it on to others. [2] For the Athenians were then already counted as Greeks when the Pelasgians came to live in the land with them and thereby began to be considered as Greeks. Whoever has been initiated into the rites of the Cabeiri, which the Samothracians learned from the Pelasgians and now practice, understands what my meaning is. [3] Samothrace was formerly inhabited by those Pelasgians who came to live among the Athenians, and it is from them that the Samothracians take their rites. [4] The Athenians, then, were the first Greeks to make ithyphallic images of Hermes, and they did this because the Pelasgians taught them. The Pelasgians told a certain sacred tale about this, which is set forth in the Samothracian mysteries.
Sipas Plini Plakut:

Ab lsthmi angustiis Hellas incipit nostris Graecia appellata

Pra Greqi ishte emri i latineve per Helladen

por eshte mese e sigurte, qe emri Graeci, eshte perdorur dhe per fise jo-greke. Une kam bindjen e plote, qe ky emer ka lidhje me : "vendin e grave te bukura"
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#329

Post by Mallakastrioti » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:44 pm

Zeus10 wrote: Une kam bindjen e plote, qe ky emer ka lidhje me : "vendin e grave te bukura"
Te njejten bindje kam edhe une qe Athiniotet ishin "Graikoi", por, sipas mendimit tim jo per grate e bukura, por sepse keshtu quheshin per arsye se ishin "femerizuar", pra ishin kthyer "si femra" apo si "gra" dhe kete gje e sjell p.sh edhe Fokioni (Focione/ Φωκίων ) ne fjalimin e tij qe u ben athinioteve:

"Ma io non sono quà venuto, o Ateniesi , ed esaurirmi in rimproveri contro la effeminata nostra gioventù, o ad invocare la legge del nostro antico Dracone, che condannava a morte questi leziosi ritratti della mollezza"

"Por une nuk kam ardhur ketu, o Athiniote, dhe sfilitem te qortoje (bej me turp) rinine tone TE FEMERIZUAR (qe sillen apo jane si femra), apo te kerkoj ligjet e Drakonit tone te lashte, qe denonte me vdekje keto portrete te druajtura te butesise."

"Arringa di Focione agli ateniesi", 1806, f. 16.

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(Duhet gjetur teksti ne greqisht per te pare si sillet ne te fjala "effeminata" (e femerizuar).
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Re: Diskutim per etnicitetin e grekeve.

#330

Post by Mallakastrioti » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:07 pm

Duke mbeshtetur burimin me siper, duhet shtuar qe edhe Aristofani i quan Athiniotet "te femerizuar":

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Mund te kete qene nje nofke ne shenje perqeshje kundrejt athinioteve, pra ata qe sillen dhe vishen si "gra".
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